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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our
20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you
here back for another episode as they break down the psychology of our 20s.
Today we're going to talk about love.
Love, meaning someone new, being obsessed with them is honestly one of the best feelings
that I think we can experience.
There is something special about those early days that is just so exciting and addictive.
It feels like the honeymoon period is going to last forever.
Then obviously at some stage real life kind of sets back in.
Or for some of us that initial craziness is really really terrifying.
It's really scary to feel like this person who we may love might actually be a source of
fear for us, not because they are unsafe, but because what we are experiencing for the
first time is healthy love.
That healthy love feels like boredom.
It can cause us to call into question all of these different things.
Whether this person is actually right for us and I really want to break that down today.
That big question of why does healthy love sometimes feel boring?
And does this sense of boredom truly mean that this person is not right for you or is
it just your relationship anxiety popping up at the worst time?
We are joined by the brilliant Sarah Yodkin for this episode from You Love and You Learn.
I'm so excited to have her on because she speaks so much about relationship anxiety
and the way that it gets in our way of finding really fulfilling love and relationships.
Sarah, welcome.
Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk about this.
I feel like I can talk about it all day.
So buckle up.
My goodness.
I know.
Well, it's so interesting because you listened to an episode that we did around relationship
anxiety with Katie and you will like, oh my goodness, this sounds exactly like what
I talk about in my practice.
And it's really not spoken about that much.
I don't think I even really came across it until I got into my most recent relationship
and was like, why is this suddenly so hard yet so easy?
Like I feel like that is such a much more common experience than we know.
Before I jump into it though, I feel like I'm just jumping the gun.
Are you able to like briefly introduce yourself, tell us about who you are about your
work?
Yeah, of course.
So I'm Sarah and I help people who are in healthy, loving relationships.
I always give that disclaimer right from the jump that we're not talking about abuse
here, but I help people who are in healthy, loving relationships, but also who have anxiety
that's holding them back.
And the reason why I fell into this work is because my parents got a divorce actually
when I was in my 20s and at the time I kind of stuffed it down and was like, it's
okay.
But they did it.
They're better off they're happier.
And I thought that I didn't necessarily care that much.
I was like, it is what it is.
But when I found myself in a very safe, loving relationship, I very quickly realized that
the fear of divorce kind of was in looming in the background and right when things started
getting serious with now my fiance, but at the time my boyfriend, I was like, what if I
got a divorce?
How do I know I'm not going to get a divorce?
How do I pick the perfect person and make sure that he has no red flags and that everything
is exactly what I'm envisioning in order to make sure that this doesn't happen.
And I realized that it did affect me a lot more than I thought at the time.
And maybe I hadn't fully processed the fears around love and relationships.
And so I just became so fascinated by it.
And now I help others through their journey with that.
Oh my goodness.
That's actually, congratulations on your engagement as well.
That is so beautiful.
And I think a story that is so much more commonplace than we think.
Like there are so many small things in our past, in our childhoods, even in our adolescence
in our 20s that really shape how we approach and see love.
And I think you can experience anxiety in any area of your life in which there is fear,
any area of your life in which you have expectations or a false alarm.
So can you kind of explain what relationship anxiety actually is?
What kind of sets it apart from what we would typically see anxiety as being?
Yeah, definitely.
So my take is that there's kind of like a, I don't even like the word normal, but I'm
just going to use it here for this case.
It's like, I think there's a normal amount of questions that could come up when you're
committing to someone for the rest of your life.
Like, oh, is this someone I want to be with or, you know, kind of just like assessing
the situation?
Whereas relationship anxiety takes it up a notch to a whole nother level.
And a question such as, is my partner funny enough can turn into a three week spiral?
Because then it's not only are they funny enough, but oh my gosh, I'm never going to laugh
in my life.
And I'm going to wake up one day and realize that I could have married this other person
that was funnier.
And so relationship anxiety is doubt about your healthy relationship.
And again, I say the word healthy because if you're having anxiety because you're being
mistreated, then that's not what we're talking about here.
But it's really taking up a notch, the normal questioning or doubts that might come up in
a relationship.
And it can come in the form of physical symptoms like your chest titans, you have lurching
stomach when you think about the future.
You feel maybe like warm or sweaty sometimes when you're trying to kind of sort out how to
move forward in your relationship.
Or it can come in the more mental symptoms like overthinking, waking up and kind of starting
to initially ask questions about your relationship or getting home after spending time with your
partner and kind of fact checking everything and having this microscope of was that fun
enough?
Did I feel good enough all of that?
So that's a little bit more about it, but I'm happy to explain anything else as far as
how it comes up to.
It's really interesting because all of those, I don't know if they're symptoms, but all
of those, that's just called them feelings or indicators of relationship anxiety feel
a lot like justified anxiety.
Feel a lot like not so much justified anxiety, but justified fears, right?
Like I think the thing about anxiety of any form, but particular relation, particularly
relationship anxiety is that there is, is very difficult to distinguish between is this
actually a real fear or is this a false alarm?
And if I ignore what is a real fear, what are the consequences of that going to be?
So I think that that hypervegesalance also comes from like a place of like perfectionism
as well of like I want to ensure that I make no mistakes when it comes to this that I'm
not overlooking anything that could potentially harm me.
And then I think it comes down to inevitably what is self sabotage where because you are
so hyper vigilant over every single minute detail of your relationship.
You don't actually give someone space to be imperfect or to be authentic or to maybe
do things that you don't totally love and adore, but which are part of like outcorks.
Do you think that relationship anxiety causes us to self sabotage a lot?
Definitely, definitely.
And I want to circle back to one thing you just said, which is that it can be really hard
to parse out what is your anxiety versus what is your fear.
And I just want to remind people that love and relationships have a lot of risk associated
with them, right?
So no matter how happy you are in the relationship or no matter how safe or no matter how steady
the relationship is, we don't get guarantees, right?
Like we don't know what's going to happen in the future.
And there's a lot of potential loss or, you know, people have fear of abandonment, fear
of failure.
Like what does it mean if this doesn't work out?
And I put all of this energy into it.
What if I lose myself or sacrifice part of myself in this relationship?
There's so many fears that can come up.
And so I just want to normalize the fact that if love for whatever reason feels scary
or intimidating to you, that that is okay and that is valid.
And it's very understandable.
And so to the point then about self sabotage, if love hasn't felt safe to you because of
maybe a relationship you had with a parent or a caretaker or maybe it was seeing your
parents split up or argue all the time or never argue.
And so you put pressure on yourself never to do that or maybe you had a past relationship
that didn't work.
Even a past friendship.
Like there can be so many reasons why love hasn't felt safe to us.
And then we compare our love with social media and seeing kind of like the perfectionism
of that.
And so then we start to your point adding all of that perfectionism on top of the fear.
And so it can be really hard to suss everything out.
And that's why I think we end up unintentionally of course self sabotaging because it feels
overwhelming.
It feels scary.
It feels like we have to get it right.
And so if there's any evidence that this isn't right, I'm getting the egg.
This person clearly doesn't understand me.
They're clearly not my soul mate.
Then we can put that block up and be like, well, they're clearly on it.
So I might as well just kind of put this to a stop and either behave in a way that they
end it or I should just end.
So you made a really good point about if you perhaps haven't had any good role models
for what love maybe should look like, healthy love.
And also if you've had like a sequence of terrible relationships that have taught you,
the version of love that you should not be aspiring to, right?
People who have belittled you, people who have neglected you in some way, who have not
treated you with respect, who have just been perhaps quite cruel or quite unaligned with
who you are.
After those experiences, I think we begin to question what love actually is and we get
a little bit confused about what it looks like.
How can we actually tell what healthy love is?
How can we tell when it is actually safe?
It's a great question and I feel like, you know, my answer might not be the only answer,
right?
Because love is such a vague concept.
But I think when it comes to especially moving away from an unhealthy love into a healthy
love, what we're looking for is feeling like both people or all the people involved can
feel safe to be who they are and that there's, it doesn't have to be 100% equal, but like
both people are showing up and giving energy to the love.
And I think healthy love is about giving and receiving versus what can I get from this
or only what can I give where you're not getting anything back.
And that's kind of like at a very fundamental level, but I also think that love, and this
is a new belief that I had to form over the last few years that felt really helpful for
me, is that love is not just a feeling.
Love is a verb, love is an action, love is a practice, and there's this really beautiful
quote, I believe it was from Paolo Cicello who wrote the alchemist, but he said something
along the lines of like you can only find love through the act of loving.
And that feels really good to me because even if I'm not in a fully loving mood, I know
I can act loving and it doesn't mean that like you're necessarily pretending, but it's
more of like taking the action towards someone you love or towards something you love and
then kind of generating it versus just sitting there waiting for it to fall into your lap
or waiting for your partner to bring you the flowers for you to feel love if that makes
sense.
It makes so much sense because I do think that this is also a belief that I've had like
the older that I've gotten, which is that like it should be intentional, like love should
be intentional.
The same way that you don't love your hobbies all the time or you don't love your like
passion all the time.
There are going to be moments where you do need to actually be like an active player and
I think the reason why we treat love sometimes like that is because we're used to thinking
of love is like this passive thing that we fall into.
We think of love as this like outside emotion that comes to us and fills us up and that
there's nothing we can really do to change that.
I think it's because of like a lot of those narratives around love being like destined
or like intertwined with fate and all of these like very magical beautiful principles but
it takes away human agency sometimes and it takes away the sense that like hey no like
I can actually I actually have a say in this I ever say in like how I want to be in this
relationship in this situation and then there's another component of this that I think I really
want to hear your opinion on which is that we can know what healthy love should look
like but for some of that for some of us it can actually be quite uncomfortable.
So even if we know that like healthy love should feel easy healthy love should feel peaceful
it also sometimes feels boring and this is something that I hear all the time which is
I feel like I found the one but it feels boring.
I'm worried about it becoming boring the longer I'm with this person.
I'm worried that like I didn't have this really intense spark.
There wasn't this chase.
What does that mean for my relationship?
Can you kind of like why do you think we confuse safe with boring?
So many reasons.
Well one thing that's kind of unrelated to love but I'm going to bring into this conversation
right from the jump is if you think about TikTok or Instagram reels they've become so popular
and so addicting in the last few years especially because you're scrolling and scrolling and
scrolling and you don't know what you're going to get.
Every new thing is it's like you have this anticipation right and that's what dopamine
is about.
It's the molecule of anticipation.
So when you're in the thrill of the chase of like oh or even when you just meet someone
new even if it's really healthy you're like oh are we going to kiss tonight for the first
time like where are we going to go to dinner next week like oh I'm just constantly thinking
about them and like it's new it's exciting what am I going to learn about this person.
So there's a lot of anticipation and that's wonderful but eventually there becomes a point
where it's not necessarily needed to have so much anticipation when you become more committed
to somebody because you know where they stand.
You know where you stand and that can be a beautiful thing but then it does take away
some of that anticipation.
It takes away some of that dopamine and unfortunately there's kind of two opposite sides of the
pendulum.
I'm not sure if you've read a meeting in captivity by Esther Perrell or if you're familiar
with it but I absolutely love that book and the concept she talks about is that passion
and desire are on the opposite pendulum of comfort and safety and it makes sense because
one of them thrives off of uncertainty, mystery, newness and the other one thrives off
of comfort and safety and reliability and so as you have more reliability and more comfort
more emotional connection in your relationship inevitably you're kind of moving away from
that opposite end of the desire, excitement, newness pendulum and that doesn't mean you
can't infuse that into your relationship but if you want a relationship with stability
and commitment you're automatically taking away some of the mystery to begin with that
unhealthy love has which is that chase you mentioned or sometimes they respond sometimes
they don't or even if you're the one kind of running away from someone chasing you like
neither of those are fully committed people it's kind of like this push pull dynamic.
Oh my goodness so spot on the pendulum that you just described I think that is entirely
accurate and I like that you said it doesn't mean that you can't have those occasionally
but it is almost I hate to say that it's a choice but that it does come a point I think
especially in our 20s where we have to decide do I want to keep pursuing these people that
constantly make me feel anxious even though that feels exciting do I want to constantly
be around people where it's like this is fun not because I'm entertained but because
I'm stressed like we confuse like feelings of anxiety and excitement and passion and
like actually just nervous arousal so often and I do feel like and I'm speaking from
personal experience and from the experience of friends you get to this point where you're
like okay there is this group of people who are going to make me feel this way which
is the excitement the passion what not and then there's this other group of people who
will actually make me feel really calm and who will respect my boundaries and they might
not be my first choice that doesn't mean that they need to be completely counted out
because if you're really thinking about like what you want in the future if what you want
is healthy love that might not look how you thought it would you know like it might not
look how you were sold it in the movies and in TV shows and even by your parents and
even by social media like I feel like that also plays a massive role in what we come to
expect from our partners for sure and I've had clients and I understand exactly where
they're coming from when they say this but I've had people come to me and maybe they're
just in one session or at the beginning of our time together and they're like my partner
liked me back right away and they told me they liked me back right away and part of me
was like why don't they have anyone else that they're like available talking to you or
like do they like are they just lame or something like it's almost like we want the safe
person but then when the safe person is actually there and committed we don't and I think
in theory it feels nice to be like oh this guy was dating around but they chose me as
if we win some kind of trophy but if you actually hear how I just said that it's like that's
not actually necessarily something to look up to it's just that you won something and
you got to have an ego boost but then when the safe healthy person's available and telling
you that they're into you for some reason that gives people the I.k.
Yeah it gave me used to give me the I.k. a little bit because I think that it's like
also very and like very patriarchal where it's like that's true you know what I mean
where it's like women like you need to be pursued you like it's not meant to be like
easy you need to like tie him down and I know that's like a very like heteronormative
way of looking at it but that doesn't fused into think I think everyone's minds where
it's like we have been sold like unrealistic relationship like trope that actually probably
won't make us happy but because we might not see a lot of other examples of that we only
want this thing that like is unhealthy but looks really good it's kind of like I always
give the analogy of the difference between like a really really fulfilling like salad or
a really like nutritional meal and like McDonald's or like or like something that's like
super like high and saturated fat and sugary I think that those relationships that feel
really exciting and passionate and like you for it could like intense that is your like
fast food right there like that is gonna make that is just gonna like set your taste buds
gonna set your brain on fire it's gonna be delicious and then you're gonna be left feeling
sick like a couple hours later and like it's not necessarily what's best for your body
even though it's what feels best in the moment and then you have something like a really
nutritionist like nutritional nutritious meal and a nutritious meal is like okay yeah maybe
it's not as like exciting but also you're gonna feel healthier you're gonna live better
might even live longer like you're going to just have a better sense of wellness and the
same goes for relationships especially those in our 20s so how can we kind of tell when
the person we're dating isn't right for us what is some of the warning signs of that
like really electric individual who isn't leaving us feeling safe but also might not be
leaving us feeling bored yeah well I think that what I talked about earlier with like that
two way street you know love being given take that feels really important where if you
feel like it's kind of that whole what am I gonna get from this person like oh sometimes
they text me back in two hours and sometimes it takes three days you know that feels like
it's gonna be the more exciting thing because you're left on your toes but to me it feels
really important to have someone who is giving you their commitment or at least communicating
hey I have a really busy week I'll check back in later that feels important and feeling
like you can share your authentic self not feeling like you're performing for that person
because one of the reasons I believe that people you know in the honeymoon stage or whatever
they kind of have this like fantasy of a person and one of the reasons I think they can
flip over later to like oh I don't know if I like this person anymore is because you're
both kind of putting this act on unintentionally but you're like I need to make sure that
they think that I do this and this and this and that I'm this and this and this type
person which is I'm sure some of who you are but if you don't peel the curtain back on
some of your vulnerable self then how are you gonna know if they receive that and honor
that in you so I think even though it's scary to do and maybe you don't do it in the first
10 minutes but throughout getting to know somebody can you show up as you're more vulnerable
self and are you met with that and one last thing is just kind of someone who creates
a safe space for you to have feelings that aren't just positive vibes only that feels
really important especially for anyone listening who may also have anxiety it's like I'm not
showing up perfectly all the time but my partner is able to honor if I'm having feelings
that aren't positive quote and help support me.
I put this thing on my Instagram the other day that was like how did you know when the
put when the person you're dating was the one all the person that you were married to
was the one and that was one of the biggest things that people said was they honored both
my the positive sides of me and the like I don't want to say negative but like the ugliest
sides of me the sides of me that I would prefer to hide like it is that like true acceptance
that is like the most beautiful thing about love but you also made a really good point
about the honeymoon phase.
I when I first started dating my partner was terrified of the honeymoon phase ending because
I think I had spent a lot of my 20s loving the initial stages of a relationship right
like it's so fun so fun when like you really don't know anything about someone and like
everything they're doing is like surprising you and they're really trying to win you over
like you said maybe even putting up like a bit of a facade like a bit of a false persona
when the honeymoon period ends how can we identify whether it is just the end of like the beginnings
of the relationship or whether some of the feelings that we're associating with the end
of the honeymoon phase is really like a sign maybe this is the wrong relationship for
us like does that make sense like is it just the honeymoon phase.
Is it the end being or is the relationship actually doomed.
Yeah definitely.
I think if your whole relationship is based off of feelings alone then that's where it
could be the beginning of the end if you're only relying on your feelings because feelings
are going to come and go and you use this beautiful word autonomy earlier like taking
where a human autonomy of choosing if you are only in a relationship because it's destined
in your soulmates then there's no choice there's no intentionality there's no showing
up and building and creating a beautiful love and so I think that if someone the feelings
completely fade and you're looking across at the other person you're like wait we have
nothing in common we don't have any shared goals for life we don't accept and respect
to this person is sitting across from each other then that doesn't feel like the foundations
of a healthy relationship moving forward whereas if you have a lot of shared values if
you accept the differences of this person if you feel like you can at least be moving
on parallel paths like in similar directions you don't have to completely intertwine and
do everything in your life together but if you're doing your thing and they're doing
theirs and then you have your thing together do you feel like that's moving in a direction
that you can be excited about right and even though the future is out of your hands does
it feel like an exciting notion and to me that's really important and I don't think that
that's the sexy thing of like oh our values are aligned yay but the acceptance and the
respect of who this person is that feels really big and so when the feeling is fade if
you don't have that like I don't know if that is a great jumping off point to be fair
yeah and what are you even going to what are you even going to talk about yeah like if
you're not you know if you don't have the feelings and you don't have like the values
or like the future it's kind of I think it's very hard to stay in that place the other
beautiful thing that someone told me the other day which really lessened my fear of the
honey moon phase ending and it's similar to what you were just talking about is think
about all the versions of this person that you are yet to meet and all the versions that
you are going to get to full and love with in the future and may my partner do this all
the time where we're like oh you know what version of me like you haven't met yet like
you haven't met like the version of me that's going to be like a father you haven't met
like the version of me that's going to be like retired you haven't met the version of
me that's going to be like it's going to be in Paris next year like you know what I mean
it's like you did not just fall in I don't think you've just fallen love with one person you
fall in love with many versions of that one person that you will like continue to see over
your life together if that's something that you want I don't know it always just brings
me so much peace thinking about that that's so beautiful and it's so open minded and open-hearted
compared to what sometimes happens is like we have this exact view of the perfect partner they
need to be exactly this and they need to stay exactly like this or they're changing when what
you just shared is like this it's just like room for possibilities and knowing that you're going
to evolve just like they will too and that you get to have many different chapters in your book
it doesn't have to just stay the same page repeating forever. It's so true and that's like the thing
when you stay in relationships that make you feel like passionate and like excited that is the
same chapter just repeating over and over again you know what I mean that is where you actually
stop growing because you are really just addicted to a feeling rather than to like a person
and rather than to your growth and rather than to something that is like has longevity like
someone said this to me like ask me the day like is love is it just chemical and to some extent I
do think that like the early stages of love really are and that's why it's so addictive and so
bonding but it doesn't mean that that doesn't that that can't transform into something that is more
I don't know everlasting and not just based on like a series of of neurotransmitters that spike
and decline and whatnot. Totally and there's been research on the difference between what they
call passionate love which is about like dopamine firing and then there's eventually this shift
into more companion it love which has more of like the feel good chemicals like serotonin,
oxytocin and it doesn't mean that like you can't again infuse passion into a companion it love but
the companion it love isn't just based off the feelings alone it's based off of a shared
connection and showing up for one another and creating that love together versus just kind of like
waiting for it to fall into your lap every morning. Once again the agency the autonomy the truth
our two favorite words for this episode. So say there's someone listening to this who is like
all right I'm like a year into my relationship I'm a couple years in and I feel like things are
slowing down or they've just started dating someone and they're like this is my first time
experiencing healthy love I'm constantly worried when it's going to end I'm worried when this is
going to when the tables are going to turn what are some of the ways that you think we can challenge
those instances of relationship anxiety where like you mentioned before it may not actually be a
problem you're just experiencing that hyper vigilance and that false alarm. Yeah absolutely well
one thing that has been really helpful for me is to practice compassion for the
general experience of relationship anxiety so like as a whole finding compassion for the fact
that I have found love to be somewhat intimidating or somewhat scary like giving it a new meaning
that this isn't something horrible that's happened to me it's more like this is something that I
really care about and I really value and so it does scare me sometimes to think about it not working
out or whatever it is like that needs to be there versus the judgment and the criticism for
experiencing that and then also in those micro moments too if you have a trigger pop up or maybe
because your walls came up you kind of said something critical to your partner when you really
actually were craving connection but your anxiety came up and led you to kind of push them away
in some way instead of letting that shame spiral go on for hours or days just acknowledging that
was a moment of anxiety it wasn't my best but how can I take one's next action towards love towards
reconnection and that can be loving yourself or loving the partner but I think so often we just
beat ourselves up for this experience and then not only do we stay disconnected from our relationship
but it's just really critical up in our brain too and I don't think that you can shame yourself out
of past trauma like you cannot or bad habits like you cannot shame yourself out of any of those
things I just think that it just actually ends up exacerbating it because you feel less like
emotionally in control you feel like your emotions are less valid I really love that tip the other
one I would say is and I'm sure you talk about this a lot as well actually take time to understand
where like what the trigger is like you said like really break it down and be like okay I can
really identify that this came from the fact that in my previous relationship you know my partner
used to pull away from me as soon as I was when I did something that he perceived as wrong or he
would like give and take affection like it was like a tool for control and so this person maybe
just actually setting a healthy boundary with me and being like oh I've got to work late sorry
that is triggering because it like it feels like a repeat of a past situation and actually
just tell them like just tell your partner that that's what you're feeling I had to do this recently
and it was like it was hard to be like oh this is why but as soon as like that was made known
it made a lot of sense more sense to both of us and actually made it a lot healthier
absolutely I love that one and if I may add one more into the mix too sometimes anxiety can
just be this big cluttered mess in the mind and we try to think our way out so are they the one
how can I be sure let me google this like it like just becomes this like upward spiral almost like
this dust of so much potential outcomes like it gets really hard to actually figure that out so
if you're feeling overwhelmed in that moment what you just said is a perfect thing to do maybe if
you're like if you've gotten a little bit more grounded you're like okay let me dissect this
trigger a bit so I can have that awareness but if you're just like in the thick of it one thing
I found is really important is to bring the body in some way and remind yourself that in the
present moment you are safe so unless you are physically unsafe and something's actually happening
to you in that moment your brain and body are signaling danger but there isn't necessarily
danger so maybe your partner just said something kind of weird and then you're you're firing off
like oh gosh like I don't know if I could be with someone like that and then it feels really
scary inside but taking some deep breaths or using your five senses to come back to the space
around you where you are and taking some time to get grounded and remembering like I am physically
safe in this moment I'm sitting across from my partner I'm on the couch with my partner like
it I'm not actually in danger here because we think we are and then it can feel like we need
to solve the danger or fix the danger right away versus getting a little bit of space from it
yeah I love that I'm sorry but when you said we think that we can what outthink anxiety
is how would you say it we like something like that oh my goodness I'm like wow that is so true
if we think about it more suddenly we're going to find a solution but it really just makes us more
anxious that is like a real slap in the face for me I'm like real call out
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We get into a relationship and we stop doing the things that light us up. That make us feel excited. Our creativity, our time with our friends, our travel, our learning new things, the things that make us feel like we have exciting things in our life. And if you're not doing that, then you're going to also project the boredom you feel in your life on to the relationship because we've been
soul this idea that once you find the one or once you find a partner, then all your problems are solved. And you just ride off into the sunset and like they kind of make you complete or make you whole. But I want people listening to check in with themselves of has my relationship gotten boring or have I also gotten boring and that contributes to how my relationship is feeling. That's the first component. And the second component is bringing some of that anticipation or newness.
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I want to say thank you so much for coming on Sarah. I actually feel like this was selfishly just free therapy for me. Just listening to you being like, yeah, alright, let me write that down. Like, check. So I really do appreciate all your knowledge and your opinions and just your value. Where can the listeners find you to learn more? Yeah, thank you so much. I receive those kind words and I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I love this conversation as well. I
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