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Hey fam, I'm Simone Boyce.
I'm Danielle Robay.
And we're the host of The Bright Side, the podcast from Hello Sunshine that's guaranteed
to light up your day.
Like our recent episode with fellow podcast host and sports journalist, Carrie Champion.
I'm making it starts to subside.
That doesn't become the goal anymore.
The goal is am I really being responsible with what I have been given?
Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners.
Wherever you are in the world, it's so great to have you here back.
For another episode as we break down the psychology of your 20s.
We have a guest on today that I, I pursued, I'm going to say it that way, I pursued her.
Sorry Ellie, I just spoiled who you are, but you read it in the title.
I was like, I need this person on for this topic.
She is the perfect person to discuss this, to discuss ADHD, autism in our 20s.
She has such a unique story and an incredible voice to this matter that I think is both
personal but also very informed and a little bit different.
So welcome Ellie Middleton, it's so great to have you here.
Thank you so much, so nice to be here.
Thanks for the lovely introduction.
I feel like I always sit here like blushing at the start and people are saying nice things
about me and like, oh yeah, that's me, thank you so much.
Now I get that.
It's something you have to kind of learn to take sometimes, but imagine if someone like
sat here and I was like, yeah, I'm not that keen on this.
Things were coming on, I guess.
It's like that one is even more embarrassing.
Yeah, that's true.
You're calling in from the UK, so we got like an international podcast crew going on
here.
Yeah, I know, worldwide.
I know Mrs. Worldwides here.
So I kind of introduced you briefly, your Ellie Middleton, you have this incredible story,
you've just released a book on Mars, which is available in the UK right now.
Hopefully by the time people are listening to this internationally because it's incredible.
But for those of the listeners who don't know, can you just talk briefly about who you
are, your story, your work, kind of a free space to just chat Ellie, I guess.
Yeah, thank you.
So yeah, I'm Ellie.
I'm an autistic and ADHD content creator, speaker and writer.
So I guess the short version is that I got diagnosed with both ADHD and autism when
I was 24.
So up until that point, I'd always struggled with my mental health, had quite a rough time
in my teenage years, but I'd always been diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder
and anxiety related depression and panic disorder and agrophobia and all that good stuff
in the mental health space.
But then when I was kind of 24, I kind of realised that that didn't seem to really fit.
It wasn't really explaining my experiences properly.
I wasn't an anxious person.
I just became really overwhelmed really frequently.
So it wasn't like anxiety, it was overwhelmed, but I think those two things are so closely
linked that all the doctors I'd seen in the past had kind of just assumed that it was
anxiety.
But yeah, anyway, when I was 24, I finally got diagnosed with both autism and ADHD and
getting those diagnosis just like changed my life completely.
Like it just made everything made sense.
It made me kind of understand who I was and I kind of, I guess I just felt so grateful
that I got those answers that I was like, oh my goodness, I can finally be myself now.
I can finally work out how to make my mental health better, all of this stuff that I just
felt that there must be so many other people out there, especially women who were in the
same boat that I was.
So they had always been diagnosed with anxiety.
They knew that they were different somehow.
They knew that something else was going on, but they just didn't know what that thing
was and they just never had been picked up by their doctors or their teachers or whatever
it might be.
So I started speaking about it online just like hoping like knowing that like if I'd
have seen me speaking about it like a few years earlier, then I would have been like,
oh, that kind of sounds similar to me.
So maybe I should look into that as well.
And maybe I would have got diagnosed like a whole lot sooner than I actually did.
So kind of wanted to try and at least like just make one person think, oh, maybe that
could be me and I could go away and look into that as well.
And then it all kind of spirals from there, I guess.
So I kind of very quickly grew quite a big audience online and then I go into quite a
lot of companies talking about how they can be more inclusive.
And then yeah, as very kindly mentioned, I've just written a book about it, which is like
my baby is like the proudest thing that I've ever done.
I'm so happy with it.
I'm so grateful that I've had the chance to do it.
But yeah, I guess basically I shout about the importance of like understanding the way
that your brain works and like being gentle with yourself for also kind of advocate for
all people having the chance to get those answers because so many people like women, people
marginalised, they're gender, people of colour, queer people, especially us spending so much
of their lives undiagnosed and just kind of being missed completely by the system.
So it's like on-o's to advocate for ourselves.
So yeah, that's a long and short version, I guess.
I love it.
It's really interesting what you said, what you just said about how you had this litany
of diagnoses before you got to the right one.
I don't know if that's even the right way of saying it.
It's almost like the answer seems quite obvious now, I'm sure.
You're probably questioning like how come no one ever said this to me?
How come it was never an option?
How come it was never on the table?
I'm sure that must have been so frustrating and speaking from like the experience of friends.
I was saying I had a close friend who was recently diagnosed and when you said everyone
just told me I was anxious, I just immediately thought of her and how
much that was always the reason given to her for this pattern of behaviors, this pattern
of tendencies.
And it wasn't the right answer and no one thought to look deeper into it.
It must be like so immensely frustrating.
Yeah, I think there's like a couple of stories in particular from my childhood and teenage
years that I look back now and I'm like, how the heck did nobody notice what was going
on there?
There's one, I think my mum struggles with this one a lot.
I think she feels a lot of guilt.
So I'm an August baby so I was always the youngest in my year group and the UK I year group
is run for.
I don't know if it's same of them but we run from like September to August so I'm like
the youngest in my year.
And when I was at nursery so I was like three and the rest of the kids in my year were four
and we were about to go up to primary school.
The nursery teacher like pulled my mum in and was like, okay academically Ellie's definitely
ready to go up to school like she's really bright, she knows what's going on.
But socially you might want to consider holding her back a year like she's very shy, she
isn't really interact with the other kids.
She's just not really interested.
We try to encourage her to play in their games and do all of these different things but
all she really wants to do is she just comes in every day and I would sit in the same
room on the same table and just do painting every single day and that was all I was interested
in.
And I look back at that now and it was kind of just like, oh okay well she's just a youngest
girl in the year so she's just a bit shy, it'll be fine, it'll come with age, it's
no worries, she's just a shy little girl.
And I look back and I'm like if that was like, Elliot rather than Ellie or Ethan or whatever
it might be like a little boy, a young boy that is like very academically bright but struggle
socially does the same thing every single day like I don't know he's lining up his dinosaurs
in a row every single day, he doesn't want to talk to anybody, they've tried to encourage
him to like straight away that would be like alarm bells, they'd be looking into it, they'd
be trying to find out what was going on, they'd be thinking that was autism but because
it was a little girl it was like oh she's just a bit shy, like it's fine, she's just a
young girl and it's like that was like I was three years old at that point, like if I'd
have been diagnosed at that point, or even had it looked into at that point, like my whole
life could have been so much different and then there's like kind of similar stories
in high school where teachers were saying that like I was being had a really hard time
like socially and was kind of being bullied quite badly and one of my teachers had said
like oh well Ellie says things that are rude sometimes so she can't like be upset when
other people are rude back to her and my mum was like well what does she say that's
rude because like she's not she's not a nasty person like she wouldn't she wouldn't do
that and then they were oh well she had got like an A rather than a star in one of her
exams and she was kind of saying to the other girls like oh I'm so annoyed that I didn't
get the A star that I wanted whereas some of the other girls had struggled to scrape
her C or a D and they were like that's kind of you know in appropriation be saying that
and I was like well I didn't know that that was rude like I'm not saying that they should
have got an A or an A star I'm just saying that I'm upset with myself and not being able
to read those social cues is like a key sign of autism as well but instead it was like
oh no she's just rude she's just a bit she's just whatever like I think so much of it
is closely tied to misogyny unfortunately but yeah I think looking back there's like so
many things where it is like yeah what the heck like it was literally like I'm as well
I've had a neon sign flashing up on my head that was like this guy was autistic but no
one like never kind of considered that that was always going on.
It's so interesting you point to misogyny and how I think one of the deepest problems
and how we approach neurodivergence particularly ADHD and autism is that the entire diagnosis
criteria is built around the behavior of boys and the behavior of men and we know that
culturally those two you know binaries that society often sees they're raised different
they are taught differently as to how to behave their personalities their temperaments are
different but when you have this kind of systematic bias in the healthcare system it's no
wonder that people such as yourself slip through and it's kind of a tragedy and I know
you're like the things that you've done now so amazing but what if you had had the opportunity
to start at that earlier what if you had had that opportunity to actually get the help
you need not experience so much self blame and negative self belief when you were three
when you were 10 when you were 15 like I'm sure that's really rough so I think you've
kind of already touched on it but why do you think so many women in particular struggle
to receive a diagnosis have their symptoms recognized and kind of alongside that why
is it always that they get the anxiety diagnosis first before people consider other options
other potential things going on yeah I think like you kind of nailed it really well there
that the diagnostic criteria is just not set up to account for the experiences of women
the experiences of people marginalized for their gender the experiences of people of color
they're based on basically like the easy way to explain it is like the only people that these
psychologists were basing the research on was like the young middle class white boys whose
parents could afford basically if they had a young boy that wasn't behaving in the way
that they wanted him to they would pay to take him to this private psychiatrist and then
they were the people that the research was based on and so anyone outside of that their
experiences are just not accounted for in the diagnostic criteria so I think one example
like for me this is a question I had to answer as a 24 year old woman trying to get diagnosed
and the question is like you know say if this is like highly highly true a bit true not
true or slightly true whatever and it's like I collect information about categories of
things for example types of birds types of planes types of car types of plants or something
so me reading that question I'm like well no I don't I don't collect information about
any of those type of things and then like the more research you do it's like well yeah
that's because I'm not an eight year old boy I'm a 24 year old woman like I collect information
about I don't know if I like a certain band I will listen to their albums over and over
and over again if I like a certain fashion creator I will like constantly be checking to see
if they've uploaded new content because I want to see like what's going on or if I like
a certain clothes brand then I will like be obsessed with when the the new drops are coming
out and checking the website and like wanting everything to do like I do still do the same
thing of like having these really strong interests that I become like obsessed with but
they're just not birds cars trains or planes because they're very like stereotypically like
young boy interests and I think that's like a really good example of like just how much
the diagnostic criteria is not designed like it's like you could sit there as a fully
like 100% autistic person and still get a really like low score on these tests that they're
doing just because the questions don't explain your experience and there's other ones where
it's like would you prefer to go to a museum or to a party and obviously it what well I
guess the correct answer is like they think that you'd rather go to a museum as an autistic
person and it's like well it kind of depends on on the museum like am I going to try
with French yeah yeah yeah yeah like it's like am I going like what sort of party is it am I
going with friends am I going with strangers like it's like that question does not in any
way kind of explain whether I'm autistic or not and I think it's the same like with ADHD
as well that like I think it's like this like Dixie Blonde stereotype is one that I speak
about in the book quite a lot which I think is a reason why a lot of girls go undiagnosed
because I mean previously it was kind of said that a lot more girls would have like the
inattentive type of ADHD which is the more like forgetfulness and struggling to concentrate
and doodling and rather than the hyperactive type which is more like outwardly visible I
guess so that was kind of an idea of like well they're presenting a different type of ADHD
which isn't as outwardly visible and but I think we've kind of moved on from that as
well to be like maybe they're not presenting any differently like that the experiences
that they have on any differently and they're just socialized in a different way like I'm
hyperactive I have combined ADHD which means I'm both hyperactive and inattentive but my
hyperactivity is very much internal like my brain is like a million miles an hour all of the time
so it wasn't ever at school that I was like rocking backwards and forwards on my chair like causing chaos
like the teachers were like finding me annoying all of this stuff because girls are told to behave
to be quiet whereas boys it's like oh boys will be boys like they're allowed to be a bit more chaotic
and girls are very much socialized to to fit in to to be well behaved to be polite to be sensible
to be like so much more mature I guess like typically so I think it's like a combination of the
fact that like one when not getting diagnosed at a young age because the diagnostic criteria
aren't accounting for how we show up and then secondly because we're not like learning that
we're different at a young age we're then being socialized in the way that kind of this patriarchal
system socializes all of like women and people marginalised for their gender so by the time like by
the time we get any older we're not showing any differences because we've learned how to mask them
and cover them up like my mum we have like a lot of conversations where it is obviously that thing of like
um the grief I guess of getting diagnosed later in life where it's like what could have been like
I had to drop out of school I had to decline my uni offers like I've had to quit jobs all of this
stuff and I'm like that wouldn't have happened if I'd have been diagnosed early um and like we've
had the conversation with my mum where my mum has been like but when I was 15 was when I like first
got referred to the mental health services in the UK um and at that point they wouldn't have been
able to like I'm like how could they not have seen like I was seeing a psychiatrist every week like
how like how could they have not noticed but that was what was going on for me and it's like well by
that point they wouldn't have been able to see it and you of course you were doing such a good job
of covering it up like by that time you'd have like you were in high school you'd learn that you
had to fit in you had to make friends you had to survive so you weren't showing any differences for
them to pick up on all that they were being able to visibly see was the fact that you were having
these like meltdowns and shutdowns and becoming overwhelmed because it was almost like you were
keeping it all in for such a long time that then it had all just like burst out in these like
intense things that would look a lot like panic attacks because it was just that I like would
become so overwhelmed I wouldn't be able to speak I would be crying I'd be overwhelmed um and it's
like well that's all that they had to work with because they couldn't see all of that that you
were holding it in like containing it most of the time they just saw these kind of like volcano
eruptions of when it came out um so yeah I think it's a really it all like ties into it as well and
it's like equally as well the more that the diagnostic criteria only account for the experiences
of these like young white cis boys the more that they're the only people that do get diagnosed
so it's like they're the only people that are going about life with the diagnosis yeah so then
it's like that kind of reinforces it of like they're the only people like the only people that you
would meet I guess that would know that they were autistic and ADHD is those people so then in your
head you're like oh well everyone that I've met that's autistic is a young white boy so maybe it's just
young white boys and it kind of goes like it goes on for such a long time like now I think we're seeing
a wave of like yeah people in the 20s 30s 40s getting a diagnosis and realizing for themselves and
you know whether that's medical diagnosis or self-diagnosing or all of these things like but they're
realizing later in life and I think that's amazing that we're like catching all of these people that
were missed but I still don't know if we're getting any better at picking up the girls like the Elliott
three in the 3. I don't yeah I still it's almost like it's like yeah it's amazing that we're finding out
now but we we need to fix it so we don't have to find out like the next group of people don't have
to find out in the 20s they find out at the same time yeah it's a really like tricky one I think to
fix without they basically just need to like redo the whole research and the whole diagnostic
criteria I guess it honestly sounds like that and also like to avoid that grief that you spoke about
but from what you've said it's like Garrett doesn't account for differences in gender in sex in
ethnicity in really anything and then it also sounds like they kind of haven't adapted it for
like a new generation that has a new environment like social media like technology and
the something you said really stood out for me there it was you know going online and following a
certain influencer or following a certain fashion company that is a whole new way of kind of
processing our environment and how symptoms might show up and I think that that profile that we
spoke about is only going to be exacerbated if you don't have those nuances not just for different
groups but for different generations that are also growing up more aware of it um the final thing
that I that I think is actually really interesting if you've ever spent much time looking into neurodivergence
ADHD autism but autism in particular the idea of masking is really fascinating and your book is
unmasked fabulous title picture out of that but can you explain what that means because I think that
a lot of the time and this is one of my like biggest pet peers with discussions in the mental
health community is that terms that actually have a real clinical and personal meaning for people
get adapted to mean something a lot more colloquial and a lot more every day so for people who've
maybe heard that term don't know what it means what does it mean to mask what does it mean to
unmask I guess as well yeah so masking put very kind of simply is covering up your neurodivergent
traits to appear more neurotypical um so it was typically and like first used by the autistic
community so basically covering up your autistic traits to appear a listic or non-autistic um but I
guess it's kind of yeah spread out to be used more widely by the neurodivergent community um but I
guess the important thing is to say like it's not a choice a lot of the time like it's it's a
safety thing of like I have grown up learning that I have to behave a certain way to be accepted
to avoid being ostracized like to get through situations like um and I think yeah it's both
it's both conscious behaviors and and like subconscious or unconscious behaviors so it can be
things that are super simple like for example as an autistic person I struggle with eye contact
like eye contact to me just it feels like I'm literally you're staring into my soul like it feels
so uncomfortable but when I was growing up I was told you have to look at people in the eye when
you're speaking to them like that's a polite thing to do like look at me when I'm talking to you
showing that you're listening to me all of these things so I just learn okay that's the right
thing to do talking to people so I would just force myself to do that and that's just the way that
I learned to to behave even though that's not a natural thing for me at all but I almost didn't
know at that point that it wasn't a natural thing for me because I didn't know that I was autistic
so it was like oh everyone must find it is uncomfortable and everyone must just force
themselves to do it because it's polite so I've got to do that as well so it can be like things as
simple as that all the way through to things like the things that you're talking about so we
kind of touched on like before the special interest autistic people have where you'd have like one
topic that you like a ride and die for basically like your obsessed with this topic you love it you
so interested in it but you might have learned that if you talk about it all the time then people
are like god can we talk about something else please like oh not this again like so you've learned
to do the small talk the other people do or you've learned that I don't know at high school like
when you're a teenager like oh it's it was supposed to talk about the boys that we fancy and
was supposed to talk about the clothes that we wear as well I'll talk about those things instead
because that people like me if I talk about those things and like yeah it's like a whole range
of experiences and it's something that is so I guess ingrained as well like for me I guess I
thought when I got my diagnosis that I was like woohoo like I'm one mask now like I can be myself
like I've learned that I made HG I've learned that I'm autistic like here we go like I can be myself
but still like to this day I mask so so heavily like now I'm I'm masking probably I'm like
speaking in a way like my natural tone of voice is quite like blunt and quite monotonous whereas
I've learned that that's not well received by it's not easy for people to listen to it's not
easy to get my point across so I've kind of learned to speak in a more up and down way in a more
bubbly way but it's not me I'm not calling this call and being like I need to you know come on Ellie
like like let's put our best accent on and talk in this certain way it's just a natural thing
that when I talk to people it it comes out like this now because it's so ingrained in the way that I am
and I think yeah that's something that I underestimated so much of like how difficult it would be
to unmask like I think I was like you know I've got the answers now like here we go like let's be
ourselves and it's like actually know like it's it's so I don't even know who's under there really
because I've spent my whole life being yeah some like being someone else and copying the people around
me and doing what I've been told to do and it's like I don't even know how to be like it's so
it's so much easier to slip into this character that has been so defined and you've had 24 years
of practicing this character to then actually being yourself which is like your real self is so much
more like I don't know how to explain this like there's no black and white really it's very much
more gray areas it's very nuanced it's very flowing like we're all kind of fluid whereas that character
was clearly defined like this is what Ellie likes this is what Ellie doesn't like this is how
Ellie behaves this is how Ellie doesn't behave so it's so much easier to fall into that like you've
got the rules of how to behave whereas if you're trying to actually I guess it's the same for everybody
when you're trying to be yourself it's you don't know exactly what that looks like um but I think
it's the same for masking of like I know that I naturally speak in a certain way when I'm around
the people um but how do I like I don't know how I speak naturally because I don't speak to myself
when I'm at home on my own do I like that's when I'm the most honest is when I'm at home on my own
not being perceived by other people not interacting with other people but then I'm not I'm not
having conversations then because I'm on my own so it's like how do I even get to know that kind of
thing but yeah it's I guess it's it that's the kind of a very long explanation but basically covering
up your your neurodivergent traits to appear neurotypical and a lot of the time it's like done
without realizing or done for safety or and I think it's like important to point out as well that like
I'm quite lucky that I'm able to unmask in certain ways because I'm very like non-threatening I guess
like I'm a small white woman I you know I I've got pretty privileged I'm like quite slim I'm quite
small whereas like a six foot five black man can't do that in the same way that I can because where
I'm stood outside rocking backwards and forwards feeling stressed out and that's like oh look at
this poor young lady who's having a difficult time whereas if a black man does the same thing it's
like he's getting aggressive he's being dangerous like that could be like you know that could be a
real risk for his safety it could it could end up in him being imprisoned it could end up it
getting in really like dangerous situations so unmasking is like a necessary thing for us to do
to be able to be healthy because it is so draining like do like covering yourself up all of the time
without realizing but it's also a huge privilege to be able to do that as well because it can be
like perceived in in different ways for different people depending on what you look like it can you
know be yeah like even even me sometimes like I've had times where I've been super tired and I've
had loads going on so I've been more in mass and I've kind of spoken more bluntly to people without
realizing just like I'm kind of my tank is so empty that I don't have it in me to like cover it
up anymore and people have been like you know you're being rude like why are you being off with me
and I'm not being off with you I'm just like all I've got in me to do right now is communicate in
the most concise and like natural way whereas that can like be end up in people thinking that
you're behaving in a certain way and yeah I think it's a it's like a it's both like the thing that
I guess a lot of people are aiming for being able to unmask but it's also comes with like dangers
for certain people and it comes with being misunderstood and like maybe being kind of yeah yeah
misunderstood I guess so the discriminated against yeah I think that's the thing like that's so
interesting when you said that I was like I actually had never thought about that before I've never
thought about that and I think it's such an interesting thing once again an argument to retire
the profile of like we it's it's so linked to not just massaging like we've spoken out about
like racism like prejudice in so many in so many like intricate ways and I think also
because we as a society have really been taught from a young age how you are supposed to act
which has contributed to the masking right there is a I think very defined formula of like correctness
and politeness that people are taught from a very young age that also means that not only have you
kind of forced yourself to take upon what sounds like it character what sounds like it for so
no no wonder you don't know who's underneath that you've been method acting for 24 years like
yeah method acting to like a plus standard like to the point where doctors couldn't even see through
it like that's kind of like insane that that that's just that's it like so hard for me to even
comprehend how exhausting that must be but I think it also from what I'm hearing from you comes
from this idea that we actually don't know a lot as a general population about what this looks like
because of how we've been taught to say it so that kind of leads to my next question which are
like somewhat what are some of the elements of neurodivergence that you think there needs to be
more conversations around that is excluded from the narrative that is maybe less comfortable to
speak about or people are less informed about not because it's reds because we aren't having
conversations about it yeah I think so in the book I have like chapter the first couple of chapters
are where I go through like the the kind of scientific basics of like what actually is ADHD what
actually is autism and what is the diagnostic criteria that a doctor will go through to to decide
if you have it or not but in the next chapter after that is like translating those traits to how
they show up in real life because I think that's where the the education is missing in society of like
we understand to a certain level the traits like on paper and but we don't understand how that
translates to real life experience especially in people that aren't the young white boys so like
one example is literal thinking is I think one that we all know the autistic people are literal
thinkers but the way that we've been told of that is like that they don't understand jokes or we
don't understand sarcasm or we don't understand like sayings you know where it's like I don't know
break a leg and stuff like that and they're that they're the examples that are given on like the
medical websites and stuff like that but actually literal thinking and literal processing for me
means that I take words as gospel like if someone tells me something I will believe it because
they've told me it so I take it very literally that it must be true so even if you know someone
when I was younger my parents couldn't say McDonald's out loud because if they said like oh maybe
well you know if you're good maybe we'll get a McDonald's on the way home I'd be like but you said
if I was good we could have McDonald's and I've been good so we need to go and get McDonald's
you know like I would take it very like literally what they said but also like it goes the other way
of like if you haven't told me something I won't know it to be true because I'm a very literal person
so whereas other people might assume that some things like going on in the background or like
that someone else has got something going on for example or that things are happening if you don't
tell me something then I don't know it so like for example like recently my dad's had quite a lot
going on at work and like the rest like my mum will be like you know if he's stressed at home it's
because he's got a lot going on at work but I'm like but if he doesn't tell me you know other people
might be able to think oh he's he's reacting different maybe something's causing him to act different
whereas I'm like but if you don't tell me that you've got a lot going on at work I don't know
that you've got a lot going on at work so I'm thinking why is my dad not talking to me or why is my
dad seeming stressed like what's going on like I'm trying to solve that problem but I don't have
the information because no one has said your dad's got a lot on his plate at the moment and so it's
that like you know people think oh yeah I understand the autistic people literal thinkers but it's like
okay no but you think that I can't understand sarcasm but actually it's that I can only process the
world with the information that I am like physically given like in black and white basically so I
think that's like yeah people don't understand how the traits actually show up in real life so I
think that's like a big one that I have tried to kind of go through each trait in that way
of being like okay this is what you know what we think it is and this is how it actually shows up
for people and then I think another really big one especially with ADHD is RSD which is rejection
sensitive dysphoria and it's basically like real bad emotional dysregulation and it's like this
basically very extreme response in in response to kind of perceived or real rejection so if you
think that someone's upset with you or you think that you're being rejected or you think that you
haven't done a good job or anything is like pointing you in the direction of some sort of perceived
rejection then it's like a full body like it feels like the world is closing in on you because
you've just been rejected in that way and I think that's um I think that's a big one as to why so
many women don't get diagnosed or they do throw the anxiety card or the depression card because
all they're seeing again is these like extreme emotional reactions and they're like hormones,
anxiety, all the things or baby days well like yeah that this would be another one where I'm like
so that it slots in yeah so I actually yeah when I so before I got to my actual diagnosis when
I kind of got to the point where I was like hmm anxiety is not quite right but I didn't have
the answers yet I actually went through there was like a couple months where I was convinced that I
had BPD like I was like I started researching online and that was the first thing that came up like
you know mood swings um going from being really high to being really low like kind of irrational
behavior and like um when someone's leaving like you know having a bandiment issues and I was like
that's me I was like all these things are me I found the answer like I've got BPD and I was like
literally going to my doctor's I was like I need to be referred for a BPD assessment like I've got
BPD like I found the answer this is it and they're like no Ellie it's not like that's not you and I was
I was like no but it is it is and like I mean I guess it isn't but yeah the the the experiences
like I read those traits and I was like that's me that's me that's me that's me but and it's
the truth is yeah yeah exactly and I think what makes it even more I actually have in this conversation
with a friend yesterday what makes it even more difficult is that things like BPD and CPTS
D are caused by trauma and growing up as an undiagnosed autistic person or undiagnosed person
with ADHD that is trauma in itself you're you're massing all the time you're living in a world
that's not designed for you you're constantly misunderstood you're constantly told that what you're
like if you're yourself it's wrong you're constantly told that you're lazy or that you're sensitive
or all of these things like growing up as an undiagnosed neurodivergent person is trauma and these
other conditions that are so similar in their experiences are caused by trauma so it's like how
the heck are you supposed to disentangle like it's so common for people to have a combination of
all these things like I am almost certain that I've got CPTSD because just the things that like
happened in my teenage years and the way that I respond now to things that happen versus like
it's not I'm not just dealing with the thing that's happening I'm dealing with all of the stuff
that happened when I was undiagnosed but the the actual experience it like it'd be really difficult
for me to get diagnosed with CPTSD because they could probably explain away all of the experiences
that I was having through ADHD emotional dysregulation, reduction sensitive dysphoria through autism
like being hyper vigilant that's again like I'm autistic so I have yeah I'm autistic so I pick up
on things really easily and I'm really sensitive to sound then I'm really sensitive to change and I
like to have a routine and all of those things also are behaviors that people with CPTSD would show
because it's hyper vigilance it's protecting yourself it's all of those things like it is it
is just a mind field of like over overlap and complication and I think yeah that's a really kind of
big big thing that a lot of people face of like what what is going on here and a lot of the time
it's probably a bit of a combination of everything so interesting as well because it's only been
recently that people can actually get more than one diagnosis like it used to be like here you have
bipolar disorder you have borderline personality disorder you have autism there's your box
sit in it now and I think you point to a really interesting point that a lot of people don't
understand which is that your experience with mental illness can actually create further mental
illness and actually can be a trigger for things like complex post traumatic stress disorder I think
we often think about that in particular it's really I really like that you brought that in we think
about trauma in the sense of something really really terrible external violent happening to you
but trauma is just like the disruption of security and peace and you know safety that is as simple
as it is and that can come from so many different things including like an experience of growing up
in as you said a world that is not designed for you that is so traumatic and it's not just one of it
it's a continuous accumulation of stress of anxiety of as you said masking so I'm glad that you
brought that up and I think it really leads into this next thing which is if I'm sure I'm so sure
that there is probably someone listening to this right now who was like holy shit
why is this describing me I thought I had bpd everyone told me I had anxiety I was said rude things
when I was a teenager without realizing it without even consciously knowing so what would your
advice be to someone who thinks that they have ADHD they have autism they're in the same position
as you now that they're an adult in their 20s like you said there's going to be so many more people
who are coming coming through in the next few decades who could have received a diagnosis at
3910 but aren't going to do so until they're 20 what's your advice is someone who kind of lived that
yeah I think it's a really really tricky one now because because of the fact that so many more
people are realizing it means that services and support just aren't there like the waiting lists
to get an actual diagnosis are so long it's so tricky to get diagnosed and also the medical
professionals are kind of a lot of the time behind us in our understanding like they were trained
however many years ago when they were at university or whatever it might be they they were taught the
stereotypical diagnostic criteria they were taught that it was more common in cis boys than it
was in anybody else you know they maybe don't have the understanding to be able to see your experiences
and see them for what they are and even that's if you're even kind of lucky enough to get in the room
with somebody like now waiting lists are really long and like private assessments are really expensive
like it's a really tricky time at the moment because it's like so many people are having these
realizations and then they they can't really go away and do anything with that so I would say like
my first point is like that self-diagnosis is completely valid and is kind of necessary in the
current world that we live in I think with ADHD it's slightly different because medication can be
helpful and obviously you would need to see and have a medical diagnosis and see a professional for
that but other than that like you are the expert of your own experiences if you're going through
all of this information if you're doing all of these online tests and you're seeing that yeah this
this is this is right for me this is who I am then you you can tell you can give yourself that
answer you don't need to have like a green tick of approval from a medical professional because it's
just you know in an ideal world yes we would all be able to go and see a psychiatrist and get
those answers but we don't live in an ideal world we live in a world where it's impossible to do that
for a lot of people at the moment and it's a privilege to be able to do that so like firstly yeah that's
completely a valid thing to do and also like remembering that it's not a piece of paper from a doctor
that changes your life it's changing your life that changes your life so it's like I you know
anyone can change the way that they're working they can work more flexibly they can give
themself more rest they can honor their sensory needs more they can wear ear defenders when
they're in noisy venues they can buy planners that will help them manage their time better they can
you know all of these things that are the reason that my life is so much better now anyone can do
it doesn't need a doctor to go yes you are autistic yes you have ADHD for you to be able to do those
things so I think it's really you know there's a there's narrative at the moment that like oh everyone's
self-diagnosing and it you have to you know you don't know but like you do know like you you can do
that for yourself and I would say the main thing as well that helped me in terms of like validation
and actually understanding and feeling comfortable in knowing that that was what was going on for me
and was looking like searching out the experiences of other people that had similar lived experience
to mine so yeah like we were saying when I was reading through the diagnostic criteria there were
some things where I was like hmm you know maybe that's me but it doesn't 100% sound like me but then
I would go on to social media and I would find another 20 something 20 something year old woman
talking about her experience of that thing and I'd be like oh yeah that's just like me I do that
I'm exactly the same as that because obviously if we're both the same age the same gender
and we have similar interests then the way that our traits show up are going to be more similar as well
so I think that's a really helpful thing to do you know if you're a woman look for the experiences
of women if you're a person of color look for the experiences of people of color if you're a mother
look for the experiences of other mothers like look for people who have similar like a wider range
of similar experience to yours then the way that their trait show up is probably more likely to
going to be more similar to yours as well so I think that's a really helpful that for me that was
like what kind of tips me over the edge from hmm maybe maybe I should look into these things to
yeah I'm confident that this is what's going on for me was seeing other people who were similar to
me talking about their experiences and because they were obviously a lot more similar to mine
and so I would say that that is like the best the best thing that I could recommend it's like
a far from ideal situation because it's like I obviously would love for everybody to be able to get
the the actual answers and the support that they need and the medication that they need for ADHD
if they choose to do that but it's a tricky time at the moment where these services are just
overloaded so I think just like knowing like that it's okay to self-dry nose that it's okay to
put these things in place for yourself without someone telling you that you're allowed to do that
and then also seeking out the experience and even like connecting with other neurodivergent people
where you can like for me um obviously I'm kind of very public about it it's my job to talk about
it online but the friends I have made through doing that and having autistic friends ADHD friends
has literally been the best thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life like I've always
had such a hard time I've had such a hard time with friendships like school was awful for me like
I think I massively underestimate it actually where it's been one of those things where I've just
had to survive it so I just I'm like we don't talk about school we don't think about it like I
dropped out of school I had I was bullied awfully like I just had an awful time and I guess I'd
just kind of got used to the fact that okay maybe I'm never gonna find a friendship group
remember I'm maybe I'm never gonna fit in anywhere because it just doesn't seem to have happened
up to now whereas now I'm like oh no I actually can find people that I relate to where I was just
not finding the right people and so I think if you can join communities um I have another
Instagram account called We Are On Mast which is a community for neurodivergent people and we try
and set up events kind of on on the back burner at the moment because I've been writing a book and
stuff but yeah hopefully we'll be doing more like online events and things like that and even just
looking through the comments you'll be able to find people who are in a similar position to you
and I think finding those friendships is like a huge thing that you can do for validation as well
100% I honestly love that not just I obviously don't have ADHD or autism but like even from my
perspective if you can relate to that like the best is yet to come like you're not going to find
your people in a high school of 600 people 600 people like maybe you will but the world is so
much bigger and broader and wider than that you have no idea what's coming and not in anxious
sense in like the most beautiful sense and also I really like that point because I think in the
cycle at the point you made earlier in like the psychology community there is a big fuss around
like ADHD is so overdiagnosed everyone's on you know riddle in or add a roll whatever and I'm like
okay great are you there doctor no so you have no opinion on this you're someone on the internet
who has made their mind up around what this doesn't doesn't look look like and I think that is so
insulting and it's additionally the thing of like I always think about the comparison to depression
you can know your depressed without doctor telling you and you can do things in your life to
mitigate that what is to say that you can't do that for other things as well and obviously
medication comes into it you might need a helping hand in that sense but it doesn't mean
that you have to wait until someone goes yeah you're like approved for a diagnosis to be
making the changes that you think are going to benefit your life so I think that's such a beautiful
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terms and conditions apply valid through June 30th my name is curly and I'm Maya and welcome to
the super secret bestie clouds podcast a super secret cloud where we talk about super secret
things yeah like secrets that are super that's what it is in each episode we'll talk about love
friendship heart rate men and of course our favorite secrets how's your spirit my spirit is
it's popping I was like text your eggs I'm like touch the blame eagle will have you crying over a
closed door that had nothing behind it and I say be yourself have fun and have a good giggle listen
to the super secret bestie club as part of the michael thuda podcast network available on the
i heart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts get emotional with me
rathie dev luke here in my new podcast a really good cry we're gonna talk about and go through all
the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone we're gonna go over how to regulate
your emotions diving deep into holistic personal development and just building your mindset to have
a happier healthier life we're gonna be talking with some of my best friends I didn't know we were
gonna go there on people that I admire when we say listen to your body really tune into what's going on all
Thursday books that have changed my life now you're talking about sympathy which is different than
empathy yeah and basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we
call life I already believe in myself I already see myself and so when people give me an opportunity
I'm just like oh great you see me too we'll laugh together we'll cry together I'm find a way
through all of our emotions never forget it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one
listen to a really good cry with rathie dev luke here on the i heart radio app apple podcast or
wherever you get your podcasts parents if you've ever experienced bedtime battles with the kids
I'm gonna let you into a little secret I'm Abby a mother of two and I had these battles myself
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the perfect kids podcast that makes bedtime a dream it's called koala moon and it's hosted by me
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since launching in 2022 koala moon has helped with over 20 million nights sleep and received over
6,000 five star reviews win back your evenings listen to koala moon now on the i heart radio app
apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts one final question that I would love for you to answer
is you've just released a book I know we've talked about it so much and I honestly hearing
your story of being like I had to drop out of high school I was bullied I never thought I was
gonna get that far and that's in he you are now is like I want to say quite emotional so what would
you tell that person that kind of younger version of you who was really struggling for answers
yeah I think a big one is like focus on the people that love you rather than the ones that don't
so I think like especially through high school I think like obviously I didn't know that I was masking
I didn't know that I was autistic whether I had ADHD but I always had it was almost like an internal
thing where I always tried to become friends with the popular people I think it was like this innate
need to fit in this innate need to be liked to to be approved of like to be validated that I would
always like try and be friends with the popular group and it was always and badly for me like I had
so many time I can literally put could probably point to like 10 different times in my life where
I've sat down with my mum and she's been like Ellie why do you always try to be friends with like
the loud girls the popular girls like they're not like you like you're soft you're gentle like
it doesn't end well for you like why and it was almost like I think like all kind of women and
people marginalized for the gender that have gone through high school know that feeling of like it's
a rock in a hard place like it's like the plastics in Mingo like if your friends with them and it's
life as hell but if you're not friends with them then it's even worse so I think it was that thing
of like I would always try to be liked by everybody and by the popular people whereas actually if I'd
have got there on my first day in year seven and gone I actually really like maths I actually really
like puzzles I you know maybe I should make some friends that maybe other people are going to call
us weird maybe we're not going to have the nicest time either but I'm at least going to have these
three solid friends that we all love each other for our weirdness and our geekiness and our
strangeness and all of whatever it might be like that would have been it still wouldn't been easy
right because no one has a nice time at high school especially if you're like different in any way
but at least I would have had like the like that solid group of friends that would have loved me for
me whereas I was so like focused on making everybody like me or trying to fit in with the popular
people that I kind of denied myself the opportunity to make friends that might not have been as popular
but they would have been friends so I think that would be my thing of like focus on finding people
that love you for you rather than being like it's that thing of like don't be everyone's cup of tea
be like someone's shot of whiskey or I don't know whatever the saying is of like basically like never
heard that but I love that I'm gonna slide that right and I don't even know if that's right we've
made it up now it's we'll go with it but yeah kind of that thing of like trying to focus on finding
a place rather than being like mass-like I think would have been a good one for me to know and I think
almost like I think it's one of those things where it's like it's a worse thing that someone can say
to you at the time but over time you realise that it's so true of just like trusting the process
like I genuinely thought that because I didn't go to uni because I dropped out of school like
that was it I was never gonna get anywhere in life like I was gonna be miserable I was gonna do
low-paid jobs I was never gonna be successful I was gonna be overworked like when actually
you know I've been really lucky I'm really grateful for what's happened but I've not needed a
degree for any of this like I've not needed high school qualifications for any of this it has all
worked out in the end and like maybe it could have worked out a lot sooner but I think just like
trusting that you don't have to do things the way that everyone else is doing them like you can
do what is better that you drop out and you're still healthy and you're working on becoming healthy
again and you're looking after yourself and you're being gentle with yourself then forcing yourself
to do things because you think that you should do them and you think that's the only way that
you're gonna achieve anything and all of that stuff and I guess yeah redefining like the path
and redefining what success is I think was because I think yeah at school there's so much pressure of
like you have to be the top grade student you have to go to uni you have to get a good job you have
and that doesn't work for everybody like life happens and also that life is not the life to
everyone once so I think if someone would have been like it's okay if you're not top of the class
it's okay if you don't go to uni that would have been a really helpful thing for me to know as well
I'll trust the process I love that also totally true like it's there's such a different path
and the jobs that we might be working at like 20 years probably don't exist yet what you and I
do and did not exist 20 years ago like maybe what I'm doing like technically broadcast did exist
but not to this level like the world is evolving and I think that's so important something I
always think is like I'm most grateful for the things that I wanted and didn't get like I'm so
grateful for the things that I like begged for that I thought we're gonna make me happy like that
internship that like you know university entry that boyfriend and I didn't get them and at the
time I was like I'm so miserable at this is the end of my life and everything I know I hate saying
everything happens for a reason because I don't think it does but there are some things that happen
for you not to you I think that's like yeah a beautiful way to end things so I want to say
thank you so much for coming on thank you for being one of our guests for this like
wonderful December holiday series it's just like such a beautiful perspective one that I think
more people need to hear and I'm so so thankful that you're able to make time to talk to us
yeah thank you so much for having me it's been so nice to have a very nice wholesome chat to start
the day for me yeah and to end the day for me look at that it's like a beautiful bookmark for our days
I'm gonna put all of Ellie's links in the description here please go and buy her book if you
if you resonate with any of this if you have a friend a family member who
this sounds like them buy it for them it's Christmas time why the fuck not you know share the
joy around share the information around and as always if you enjoyed this episode please feel
free to leave a five star review on Apple podcasts Spotify wherever you're listening right now share
it with a friend if you think they'd like it and if you have any further questions comments if
you have an opinion on this episode or an episode suggestion please feel free to follow us
at that psychology podcast and we'll see you again later this week
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