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Hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast whereby we talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Okay, this week, we're talking about narcissism and the narcissist.
You know, what better week to kind of talk about this?
My ex -boyfriend popped up to me in case anyone was interested.
So I was like, wow, that kind of reminds me of a topic I haven't covered yet.
What better way to kind of take some inspiration from my own life, let him know I'm still thinking about him.
No, all jokes aside.
I have really wanted to cover this for a while.
I think it's a really interesting personality disorder.
And a lot of the time on this show, we don't really discuss, I think, clinical disorders or pathological disorders.
It's more like a broader discussion of things with, I think, some tenuous links to psychology and kind of jumping into it.
But I really wanted to discuss the psychology of narcissism because I think that it's become a term used very frequently.
It's one of those crossovers between pop culture and psychology that we're seeing a lot more of these days.
Another example is like gaslighting.
People use that all the time or saying that someone is a narcissist is obviously a pretty big one.
But I do think we all know someone who's a narcissist.
Just take a moment.
Think about the people in your life, maybe self -diagnose them.
Maybe you've even had thoughts that you are a narcissist.
And if you have, no fear, because that probably means that you're not, which we're going to discuss in this episode.
I think in your twenties, you are very likely to encounter kind of a new breed of person as our identities become more developed.
Someone whose ego just seems a little bit too big for their boots to hold.
So if these people exist and we're likely to encounter them and, you know, now twenties is probably the first time we really meet someone that's like this and we're able to see that that's abnormal.
How do we have relationships with these people?
How do we interact with them?
How do we work with them?
How do we date them?
I also really wanted to explore some of the misconceptions around narcissism.
Like I said, it is such a popularized term, but how often do we just use it quite flippantly without really knowing what it actually means and whether someone actually is a narcissist, whether we can call them that.
So we're going to discuss also some of the clinical implications of narcissism.
So where does it come from?
This, like, discussion that it's in every corner of psychology.
Is narcissism nature or nurture?
Yeah, that's a huge debate that's been raised for a long time.
And I don't think psychology is coming any closer to finding a real answer for that.
Another big question is, you know, does narcissism have a cure and should we deal with it?
Whoa, there we go. A brief intermission.
Bless me. Anyhow, does narcissism have a cure and should we deal with it as a mental disorder, perhaps a condition rather than just seeing it as maybe a fault of someone's character?
Yeah, just some really big questions, but I think on a more personal note, we're going to discuss narcissism in our own lives, what it means for someone to be a narcissist, how they operate their behaviors, what it's like to date someone who's a narcissist, what it's like to be around people who are narcissists
and how to kind of escape the manipulation and the charisma of a narcissist.
And don't worry, I do get the irony.
I think it's kind of funny.
Like here I am, you know, making my own podcast, like listening to this out of my voice and the episode is on narcissism.
But maybe I'll I don't know.
I don't think I'm a narcissist, but maybe someone will think I am after listening to some of these criteria.
So buckle in because I've got a lot of energy today.
Like I said, it's been a very complicated week and this is a topic I really want to dig into.
So let's do it. So narcissism is extreme self -involvement to the degree that it makes a person ignore the needs of those around them.
So while everyone may show occasional narcissistic behavior, because as my good friend Kate says, everyone is the center of their own universe.
So it makes sense that sometimes you have self -involvement.
But true narcissists, they will frequently discard others feelings and don't even seem to be aware of them.
So they also just do not understand the effect that their behavior has on other people.
So that unable to comprehend how their own self -involved behaviors have first and second order consequences.
There are no like physical blood tests, MRIs, GP appointments or, you know, exact biological determinations that can identify a narcissist.
Even therapists do just have to go on observations of the behavior and the attitude that a person presents.
There's no like quiz.
Like you might see people like posting things or like buzzfeed quizzes like, are you a narcissist?
But that's not how it works.
They basically have to just base what they're seeing in a person off of the DSM criteria.
And some of these criteria include superiority and entitlement, which we've talked about.
So someone feeling like they deserve anything they would like and just go to any means to obtain that regardless of who they step on.
For a narcissist, like there is no such thing as being wrong or feeling inferior.
This also kind of goes along with an exaggerated need for attention and validation.
As well as like this need to control their relationships as well as their work and their own lives.
And I think the three biggest indicators, though, that are like firstly, you know, massive red flags in any relationship, but also cause a lot of interpersonal conflict and difficulty.
And then these three huge red flags related to narcissism and how it presents in people.
These are a lack of boundaries, lack of responsibility for their own actions.
So someone who is a narcissist, they always blame outside events or people or emotions for their own actions, which oh my God, I can relate to.
That was just like this person I used to date.
And anytime I'd be like, oh, you know, probably shouldn't have treated me like that.
Probably shouldn't have said that.
Didn't really appreciate that.
They'd be like, oh, you know, it's just because of this that's happened and it's cause I'm suffering.
It's because of my emotions, like it has nothing to do with you.
It has nothing to do with me not caring about you.
It has everything to do with external events.
And finally, a big red flag and a big thing that narcissists often show is just a general lack of empathy.
Yeah, like I said, like the lack of responsibility was a big, big one for me that I think I saw in this person that I used to date.
You know, anytime they did something wrong and were confronted with this, they could never see the hurt that that would cause and would constantly blame these external events, particularly like uni and stress and housing situation.
So they just were unable to be held accountable for how they treated others.
There was also always like an urgency to make things right so that they could redeem themselves as the good guy, rather than like actually taking real and honest responsibility for the actions.
But even in those situations, he only really seemed aware of his own emotions in terms of like he's upset me.
It's not that he wants me to feel better.
It's what he doesn't want to feel bad about it anymore.
And I think that's a big common misconception about narcissism, that they can't feel emotions.
They can. They can feel emotions, but they can't see those same emotions in others.
They can recognize them, but even that, maybe not as much as a normal person or someone who is an empath could.
And although they can see emotions in others, they can never really comprehend that the intensity that someone is feeling an emotion might be the same intensity they would feel that emotion.
So things like anger, sadness, guilt, grief, they can feel all these things, but they're unable to connect the emotions they're feeling with the experiences of others.
This is why they also seem to have really poor emotional regulation, you know, large up and downs, falls in self -esteem, and then return to this grandiose sense of self.
Another big trait is an inability to appreciate how others see them.
And an obsession with outside perceptions and being liked and in people's focus, you know, like calling yourself a big name, for example, or like constantly feeling the need to be important, starting new projects that you think will make others like you.
So they often idealize others that represent perfection, which is kind of followed by devaluing that very person when they are perceived to have failed them.
So, you know, you might have someone that the narcissist might have someone they really look up to.
And their opinion is just seems so, so important and there's this obsession over whether they like them, trying to become closer to them.
But then they're also highly dismissive of that person because if they can't live up to the expectations they feel that person might have for them, it's a lot easier to, you know, knock that person down in your own mind than address your own ego.
Anyhow, while all this paints a very flattering picture, I think it's fairly obvious how so many of these traits would make friendships and relationships with these kinds of people fairly difficult.
I think it's hard to be emotionally attached to someone who is incapable of ever relating to how you feel.
And clinically, as well as chronically, they just don't care.
You know, it's not even like they have any control over it.
It's just like they have a pathological apathy, even to those that you would think that they would love.
And they're just so focused on themselves that they cannot really see their partner as a separate person.
They tend to only see their partner in terms of how they feel their needs or fail to feel their needs on the other side of the coin.
I think often from like doing some research and like personal experience and just talking to people who've had this experience, the dynamics often play out a lot more insidiously.
So you might talk about an issue and your partner relates immediately to something that happened to them and your story kind of fades as there's takeover.
Or, you know, you and your partner or your boyfriend or your girlfriend disagree and somehow you end up second guessing yourself as if kind of dissent will threaten their whole well being.
So you don't want to do that.
You don't want to have to face what happens when you tell them they're wrong.
And any needs you communicate that aren't in line with theirs may just be thrown back at you as a character floor of yourself or as something that's wrong with you.
These are just like a few examples of what a relationship with a narcissist might look like.
And I think really importantly, falling in love can put you off balance, but standing in love that is that you trust and standing in the love when you know you're cared about that firmly grounds you.
And an absolutely essential ingredient of any good relationship I think is like emotional safety, like you need to feel safe to be your authentic self and to be happy.
But it's very difficult to be yourself and to feel connected to yourself when you have such an emotionally volatile partner, which might be the case with a narcissist.
I think another really important thing, and I read this really interesting article that was talking about this, relationships with a person who has narcissistic traits can survive.
They are possible if you as the partner have good self -esteem, you have strong boundaries, resources in particular that are valued by the narcissist, patients and even tempered personality and also a reason to stay with them throughout all these downfalls and faults.
And I think over time, this sort of self -esteem that you need to have, it will acquire positive and good and strong reinforcement from other parts of your life like work and friends in order to be maintained and to ensure that your relationship with that kind of energy sucking individual can continue.
And that reason to stay, I think people are attracted to different things and confidence, motivation, power, attention, all of which narcissistic partners can provide and it can offer motivation to someone who might be with a narcissistic partner in the short term and the long term to stick around.
But of course it can be volatile and it's not like you can just tell that person to go to therapy because it's unlikely they'll believe that anything is wrong.
So it can become pretty one -sided or dare we say toxic, although I'm not a big fan of that word.
And I think a really good hallmark that I kind of saw in my own relationship for realizing that things aren't going right, that the relationship is one -sided, that it isn't healthy is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable telling your friends and family how someone treats you or the things that they
say to you, you probably shouldn't be with them if their narcissistic traits are that pronounced.
So if you wouldn't feel comfortable telling your best friend, oh, you know, I was really upset about this and he just said like, oh, he related it back to himself and you know how hard his life is or told me I was overreacting or that the reason I was sad was incorrect.
If you wouldn't feel comfortable telling your friend that your emotions or your needs were neglected, then it's probably not something you should tolerate.
And that's what I found where I was like, oh, I don't feel comfortable telling my friends the extent to which some of these things have been said to me or how I'm being treated because I know that they wouldn't like him anymore and I want them to like him.
So it kind of became this like almost like a bit of a, like a bit of a play, I don't know, like a two like, like living two lives, like the one where I was with this person who I loved but who had all these traits of like excessive need for attention, a sense of self entitlement, just an excessive need
to be praised by others, to be liked by others.
And then I had my own life where I was trying to just like do my own thing and be happy and healthy in myself.
I think this is a good time to kind of jump into the clinical underpinnings of narcissism before we kind of talk more about how to set boundaries with these types of people.
So narcissism has been around as long as, you know, humanity has been around really.
And the term itself comes from the story of narcissists in Greek mythology.
Essentially, you haven't heard the story, but I'm pretty sure it's, it's a common one, but I'll recap it.
I'll bring some, some classics into this psychology podcast.
So narcissist is the story of a Greek hunter who is the son of a river god, Sephasis and a nymph and he's very beautiful, blah, blah, blah.
And he rejects this really beautiful nymph called Echo.
And she walks around the forest, you know, in lamenting, mourning him.
And that's where the word echo comes from, you know, until all that's heard of her voice is an echo.
And his punishment for his rejection of her, the God of retribution and revenge, Nemesis, leads him to a pool or a pond where he is forced to see his reflection and Nemesis causes him to fall in love with this reflection.
And although he doesn't really realize in the beginning that it is just him in the face of the water, when he comes to understand it, he falls into a despair that his love cannot materialize that he could never, you know, be in love with another person as much as he loves himself and he commits suicide.
So hopefully we see the links between modern day clinical narcissism and this kind of story of self love and indulgence.
But the formal diagnosis kind of began with Freud and different schools of psychology.
They all kind of accept slightly different understandings of the pathology of this personality disorder and where it comes from, if treatment is possible and the details of what it really means.
Firstly, let's clear this up.
Narcissism, it is a disorder as we would classify it, like a disorder in terms of it causes impairment, it's not normal, it's abnormal.
It's a personality disorder and it kind of goes without saying, I would hope that diagnosable narcissism is far more complex and often more dangerous than just mere selfish or selfishness or vanity.
So we've already discussed some of the characteristics or criteria of having narcissistic personality, we've discussed that grandiose sense of self -importance, the need for excessive admiration, entitlement, being interpersonally exploited, the list goes on.
If you want to read it, you can read it in the DSM.
But there's another core element of narcissism that must be present for a disorder to be identified.
So the essential features of any personality disorder are impairments in self and interpersonal functioning.
This is why some people have argued that figures like Donald Trump, for example, can't be labeled narcissist even though it seems quite possible because he doesn't seem overly impaired.
You know, he became president.
That doesn't show an inability to hold down a job or a lack of direction.
And there are some key areas where impairment is more likely.
For example, impairments in self -functioning, especially in terms of self -identity and huge fluctuations in self -esteem and self -direction.
A narcissist, someone who is diagnosed as a narcissist, may be unable to set goals that are realistic or separate their goals from the approval of others.
And their personal standards are often unreasonably high in order to maintain the idea that they are exceptional, which can actually have the inverse effect of making them quite unimpressive because the fallout from when they can't meet excessive goals can be so dramatic.
The other area where impairment is common is in interpersonal functioning, specifically in terms of intimacy.
We've already talked about this, but relationships between a narcissist and a regular person can be largely superficial because they exist to serve their self -esteem.
Therefore, like a person who is narcissistic might experience dysfunction in their inability to maintain a personal relationship or a long -term friendship.
And other areas of impairment also relate to their excessive attempts to attract and focus attention on themselves.
And this can cause dysfunction, for example, in a classroom, amongst peers or at work.
There is one small caveat that I found really interesting, so maybe I should explain this.
I think I've kind of already done it, but essentially if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist, and you have someone come in, firstly it's highly unlikely that they're going to label themselves as a narcissist or seek help because of their express traits that may be due to narcissism.
It's very unlikely that someone is going to come in and say, I'm a narcissist and I think this is a problem.
They're probably going to be coming in for some other form of impairment, maybe family therapy, maybe they've been recommended by their workplace or by their partner.
But you talk to this person, you get a sense of their character, and if you have a suspicion that they may be narcissistic, you apply this criteria that is in the DSM.
And depending on the disorder you're applying it to, a person needs to meet a certain number of set criteria to be diagnosed.
For narcissism, a person needs to exhibit only 55 % of the identified characteristics to be diagnosed with the personality disorder.
And this is really low for depression or most common anxiety disorders, you have to meet, I think like, it might be like five out of seven criteria and two of those criteria aren't optional, so you have to have had those in the past three to 12 months to be diagnosed.
But there is one small part of the DSM when it comes to narcissism which says the impairments in personality functioning and the individuals personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual socio sociocultural environment.
This is really interesting and I think really crucial because in some cultures where excessive self confidence, a lack of empathy and interpersonal exploitation are coveted or celebrated, a person may not technically be deemed a narcissist.
For example, like in capitalist and competitive societies, an argument could be made that there are actually fewer rather than more narcissist because the traits can be explained and are accepted within the socio cultural environment.
Another thing about narcissism is that you can never self diagnose.
So if you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you're probably not one.
Narcissists generally lack the kind of empathetic self reflection that might make them wonder if they have a personality disorder.
And this is why narcissism is so seldom treated and why it's really hard, maybe even possible to truly quantify how many people have the disorder.
So let's kind of talk about treatment because if it is considered a disorder and a disruption to our relationships and our functioning, we would hope that psychologists have some form of treatment plan.
Just to put it simply, no, they don't.
It's such an elusive disorder that there is no medication, no common form of CBT or therapy to treat narcissism.
One of the most common measures that they do use is psychotherapy.
So psychotherapy is a pretty, I would say, common technique in psychology or if you go and see a counsellor, it's basically like by talking about your problems, you can kind of analyse where your behaviours come from unconsciously.
So psychotherapy can help you if you are a narcissist, kind of learn to relate better with others so your relationships are more intimate and rewarding.
And it also helps you understand the causes of your emotions and what drives you to compete, to distrust others and perhaps to have that weird roller coaster of self -esteem.
And areas of change are directed at kind of helping you accept responsibility and learning to accept and maintain relationships in collaboration with people like your co -workers or accept your actual competence and potential so that you can tolerate criticisms or failures.
It also aims to kind of increase a narcissist's ability to regulate their emotions and their feelings because they can be so volatile.
And to also understand and tolerate the impact of issues related to their self -esteem.
So this is kind of the basis of psychotherapy in treating a narcissist but it's highly ineffective and has really high dropout rates.
So not only is it hard to get someone who is a narcissist to go to therapy but it's hard to get them to stick around.
Sometimes it can even work against their best interest because so many of those traits that we might despise that we see in a narcissist can actually make people really successful in business and in their careers and negotiating in a lot of areas really.
So it's still a really rich area of research if you feel like hanging around a bunch of narcissists and trying to teach them empathy.
Which is why narcissists are often used in a lot of studies around whether empathy is nature and nurture and how it can be built in people, specifically children.
That's kind of a good segue into the nature, the nurture debate around narcissism which is such a huge topic.
When it comes to most personality disorders but this one in particular.
So the question everyone kind of asks is how does a person become a narcissist?
Because we kind of want to avoid these people from showing up.
And it's a hotly disputed issue in the world of psychiatry and there's a wealth of theories, no kind of one size fits all answer.
But the view of this very famous psychologist whose speciality is in this area is that it's probably about 25 % constitutional or due to your genetics or biological underpinnings and 75 % is external.
So a narcissist doesn't necessarily come from a dysfunctional family but narcissism can occur because a parent or caretaker wasn't able to provide emotional attention or it could be the flip side.
A parent provided too much attention and the child never learned frustration tolerance.
It really depends and the same situation can result in different outcomes for different people.
So contributing environmental factors that a lot of researchers kind of found may include childhood abuse or neglect, excessive parental pampering, unrealistic expectations from parents, sexual promiscuity but this often accompanies narcissism rather than causing it, and a lot of cultural influences.
So far it kind of does seem to be very environmental but some neural models have suggested that it is an inherited condition and have this kind of explored the idea of a selfish gene that is activated by parenting style.
So it appears to be more of a combination of genetics and environment.
So if you know a narcissist as much as their behaviour may annoy you and hurt you it's kind of necessary that we recognise that it's not really their fault.
They often have like a biology, there's often something biologically that was there when they were born that was then triggered that's created this personality, this identity and it's pathological, it's chronic, they can't really do anything about it.
And I know this sounds kind of bizarre considering how much I've kind of shitted on people who have these traits and how terrible they are in relationships, blah blah blah blah blah.
But it's one of these confronting things that we often have to consider when looking at personality disorders in particular is how much is it really that person's fault?
It's part of their personality, yes, but they also have so little control in determining this outcome for themselves and it does at the end of the day cause them impairment, it can hurt their relationships.
It's not really a choice for them to have these traits, to be a narcissist, to step on people, to not have empathy, to be exploitative and need a lot of attention and self entitled.
But the question is how far can we really stretch that logic because then we can kind of extend this it's not your fault claim to any element of someone's personality and their flaws.
Anyways, a little bit of a segue.
I think it's just kind of interesting to think about that, think about where we place personality disorders in terms of our conceptions of right and wrong, whether someone who is a narcissist or a psychopath or a sociopath can be seen as bad or worse than others, when really they didn't have any say
in the kind of person they turned out to be.
The way that we kind of didn't have any say in the way we turned out to be and perhaps our nicer temperaments or those that are more agreeable.
Let's move away from the science for a bit and kind of conclude this episode by talking about how to cut ties with a narcissist, which can be especially hard considering how charismatic and powerful they can feel and the emotional vortex they create around them.
So I read up on some tips about this if you're maybe seeking advice and I'm guessing if you have listened this far you probably have some personal attachment or have identified someone in your life who may be narcissistic and probably want to know how to deal with it because, oh my god it can be fucking
exhausting. This might be extreme but it might be necessary and it's a strategy that I saw all over the place that is recommended and it's called the no contact rule, which you know you could probably apply to a lot of people who you might deem as a bad view or negative in your life.
So the no contact rule is a method used in order to cut ties with a narcissist, a sociopath or some other form of emotional manipulator.
And as the name suggests it's all about stopping every kind of communication with that person and cutting all ties with them so that you are unable to interact with them and they can't interact with you.
For instance not facing the narcissist under any circumstances, so whether you're alone in public or surrounded by friends, not calling or texting or communicating with them, blocking their phone number, blocking their Instagram, blocking their Facebook from any social media account.
In fact maybe even deactivating your own account as well if you're worried that you might not be able to resist talking to them when you definitely need a bit of a break.
And if it's a family member this may be harder, we can't really expect that they will respect your decision because well as we kind of talked about they're incapable of respecting boundaries or understanding emotional decisions.
But I do think it's essential to stay firm and don't give in if you believe that nothing has changed, which it unlikely has because it is a chronic condition this doesn't just go away, this is who this person is.
And I think surrounding yourself with like a good support network, that's the advice for anything really, and writing a list of why you've made the decision and why you want to stick with it.
And I think the opinion I always have when making these kind of hard decisions having these hard talks and making the decision to cut someone off or end things with someone is you'll be so much happier you've made the decision now rather than in three months because it's three more months of healing
time for you. Anyhow, a bit of a weird episode, a bit of an emotional episode, a lot of baggage was unpacked and put away.
Honestly I'm getting the feeling, I do just feel like this podcast is a personal therapist or source of catharsis for me.
So much of my personal life tends to filter in and maybe you've noticed that in my intros, what really determines these episodes is what I'm going through in my personal life.
And things I'm interested in I think as well, not so much like the things I think are the most relevant.
I think narcissism is interesting but there aren't that many narcissists, you might know one but it's not as common as like a breakup or feeling sad or jealousy or things like that.
But yeah, just a really interesting topic I think to discuss and I've mentioned it's just such a rich area of research.
We really don't know much about this disorder.
It's so elusive, it's so hard to find people to study, it's so hard to get people to commit to long term therapy and to see whether after a certain point there is like a cure or like a treatment for narcissism.
Whether it's entirely bad, how to have a relationship with someone who's a narcissist because people do, it's not like the whole world of single people, it's just people who are narcissistic.
Many of them will have relationships and they might even be functional.
So how do we kind of compute that with our idea that they're terrible and there are all these traits that we really dislike in others.
Anyhow, a nice little conclusion to this episode, I hope you enjoyed it.
I hope at least it was interesting that you learnt something, a new fact for the week.
Thanks for listening all the way through if you really liked this episode, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, wherever you're listening right now and follow us on Instagram, it's called 20psychologypodcast.
You can see the awful Instagram reels I've been making as of recent.
And yeah, have a great week.
I hope you enjoyed this episode that you learnt something and we will see you next time for some more juicy discussions.
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