#1060 - Rick Glassman - The Case Against Condoms & Fake Friendship | Modern Wisdom

I'm cosplaying with you.

What do you think?

How do you rank mine?

I would wear it.

Nailed it.

And I was flattered because we don't really know each other.

But you said, like, are you going to wear a nice jumper?

And I'm like, that's kind of my thing.

Yeah, of course it is.

You seem like a very cozy guy.

If I could describe you in a single word, based on five minutes of interaction and watching some stuff on the internet, it would be cozy.

I like to wear things that I could sleep in.

But I also know that sometimes if you show up someplace wearing something, that sometimes you wear something someplace and people feel offended based on what you're wearing.

And it's like, okay.

Um, so let me just find some really cool clothes.

That I could trick you into thinking is Oh, look at, I could wear this to the big dance, but also I could go home and sleep in it.

No, I, I optimize for comfort as well.

Mine leans a little bit too sports wary, which there's not really much that you can do to kind of elevate sport.

If you're going out for a dinner or whatever and you're in a like a Lululemon fucking t-shirt or something, you're a little bit.

When you wear sports clothes.

You're not wearing something to elevate the clothes.

You're wearing clothes to elevate the body and you have a body for it.

I've been saying it for weeks, but you have a body that shows the veins.

So.

Well, this, I could get away with this.

I feel like, uh, it's like a cup of cocoa, like both hands holding it with both hands.

It's very important.

Another way I think of that is like if this were a rom-com in the early two thousands and you would be a beautiful woman and you, you would be wearing that, but you would be.

It would be like this

Yeah.

And I would think you were ugly as shit until you took your glasses off.

I'd have my glasses down here.

Oh, you're ugly.

My hair's up in a bun and I'd like pull them like this and go.

Oh yeah.

Then you get a, can I say boner?

Yeah.

Then you get a boner.

Uh huh.

I heard you talk about um like random erectile dysfunction and the subsequent fallout.

The the the, the negotiation.

Where did you hear me talk about this?

You were freestyle rap, someone who was like on your show.

Yeah, with Coast Contra.

Yeah.

And you were trying to explain to four surly black men who I didn't think would be that forgiving of a conversation around, like rapid erectile R-E-D, rapid erectile dysfunction.

But they seemed to be like, yeah, man, been there.

Yeah. or whatever.

Well, they, they didn't say they were, they had been there.

They said they hadn't.

And I don't believe them, but they were accepting of it.

One of them grew up watching the Simpsons.

I'm not joking.

We talked about it.

He was the one that you resonated with the most.

I was like, this guy goes soft a lot into a relationship with me at some point in future.

That'd be good.

The conversation was based around it.

I don't want to get, I mean, we can, but this is how we're opening it.

But based on comfort.

Um, I'm very sensitive to smells and textures and sounds and like it's not.

It's not just a look thing.

It's really like the best.

I could explain it as like people that wear contacts even if it's not hurting you, you know they're there.

Um, it's hard to be present if you're feeling things.

And um uh, when you make love or even have sex with a condom, it's like I'm having sex with contacts.

So I'm just aware, I'm aware they're there.

You know what I'm saying?

I'm blinking a lot.

And uh, That's why I've learned and I think this is a good practice indirectly to never be like that physically intimate with somebody who you don't feel safe explaining to them.

Hey, I'm not present with you right now.

You know what I mean?

Maybe we can make out for a little bit or why don't we go get tested so we don't have to wear these.

And I feel that way in friendships as well as a metaphor.

What's the equivalent in a friendship?

I like to boss balls.

I like when people fight, like I like playful banter and repartee.

I don't pick up very well on when other people don't like it.

And what I have found is, and I don't think this is exclusive to relationships with me.

I just think when people anything but I'll say, play for this example, it's a lot easier to just go with the flow and just drain your battery a little bit than it is to say Hey, I think you're joking.

I'm not sure.

I don't like playing this way.

Um, could you explain your intention?

Or even if I know your intention, I don't know.

It's something about it when you comment on this or that.

Um, as much as I don't take it as my responsibility to like make sure other people feel safe, like they could set their own boundaries,

I also recognize that some people don't feel comfortable setting their boundaries, at least not yet.

So I guess, in that analogy of like having sex with somebody before You guys feel safe, saying who you are and what, what makes you feel good?

Um, so in bits, like I get stoned, I love weed.

And when I am high, I'm in bit mode and I'm hilarious, uh, or extremely annoying.

And I don't know.

So I'll go into groups of people and be like, Hey, like, uh, are we doing bits?

Could I cause?

If not, I'll get out of here because people won't say and they'll roll your eyes, roll their eyes.

And then like later you find out you were annoying people.

So I just think it's important to yeah, I guess, in friendships, be able to have friendships where you don't have to wear a condom.

You know what I mean?

What a wonderful way to summarize it.

I know exactly what you mean.

I would have guessed, given what I know about you, somewhat obsessive with the OCD, with the paying attention, with the vigilance stuff, with the.

I'm sort of aware of my surroundings, what I feel, what I hear.

You just really rain manned me there.

Yeah, I know.

More water.

I would have guessed that that would have graduated or evolved into some sort of codependency.

If you're not okay, I'm not okay.

If I say something that makes you upset, like I'm permanently not doing the bits.

I'm scared of doing the bits because if the bit makes you oh, did they respond slightly badly to that one?

I might've hurt their feelings.

I would have imagined that that blast radius of some stuff that you pay attention to would have expanded out into i'm in a group and i'm steaming in maybe not if you're high, i guess like you've probably walled that off somewhat, your ability to pay attention.

But yeah, i would have thought that you would have been uh, you would have had that trait too, that you would have been over over concerned.

I understand the trait you're talking about.

I just don't understand where the why uh why, why?

Well, if you are hypersensitive to the clothes that you're wearing, the sensations there, it's obvious that your sensitivity is maybe a little higher than other people's might be.

Oh, I understand.

Yeah.

So this is not a trait that I'm proud of.

It's a trait that I'm aware of and I've been working on.

But the sensitivity is about my comfort and I'm very sensitive, not like I'm in tuned with the universe.

Um, it's more about self.

Um and like.

If I'm like, it was for a long time, it still is.

What I'm about to explain still exists in my mind, emotionally but logically.

I know it's not the case and I could parent myself with it.

But for a very long time I wasn't aware of this, which is whatever I was thinking or feeling.

I didn't assume necessarily it's right or wrong.

I just assumed this is what you're thinking and feeling.

I knew what you were thinking and I was wrong.

I didn't think I knew what you were thinking.

Like I knew it.

Oh, everybody's uncomfortable.

I better do some type of a joke, you know, or everybody is this.

And what I realized is I have no idea what other people are thinking.

I have no idea how they're feeling.

And I still don't believe that a lot of people are even very in touch with what they're thinking or feeling.

So, The idea of me being like, oh, maybe I'm doing something to this person.

The only way I'll feel that way is if I, like right now I feel, oh, I'm talking too much.

It is what it is.

Feel free to interrupt.

These are podcasts.

But like, so now I'm thinking, oh, maybe I should be quiet.

I'm not thinking that you think I'm anything.

I'm just like, yeah, I don't, I don't know.

I just, that's why I don't like wearing condoms.

I want to be with people who just say, Rick, be quiet.

You know, Rick, I'm, I don't like this anymore.

Rick, do more.

Oh, that's interesting.

So you, you look forward to boundaries being set in that way.

You're a pro boundary person on the other side.

Yeah.

How are you with your own boundaries?

Great.

Okay.

Earlier we were, Dean wanted to move my keys and my hat.

Because of you or me?

Um, what's that?

Because of you or because of me?

Is it moving for that reason or for the other?

Yes.

If it was for me, it'd be like, I'm okay.

If it's not, it's like, okay, but I still don't want them out of sight.

That's why I put them over here.

Um, I also, I've always been that way.

And it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized that not everybody likes to say that.

A lot.

Some people will just hey, could I have the?

There's a friend that I have I grew up with and I saw him again this summer and I talked to him about it.

I used to sleep at his house a lot and he had all this cool stuff like these little toys nothing like expensive that I can imagine, just like random little things.

No, this is a cool bottle.

Can I have this?

I would ask if I can have it.

And he always said yes.

And I, I didn't even remember.

I never really thought about it.

There's probably 10 different things I took from his house.

And I saw him this past summer.

And I remember that like, dude, I used to take stuff from your house all the time.

He goes, yeah, it was okay.

Like I, like he didn't want me to take his stuff and he gave me like these toys and stuff.

And I was like, oh my God, I feel so bad. why wouldn't you tell me?

No.

He goes, well, I don't know.

You wanted it.

And I didn't really want to, I was like, Oh, what an ugly thing.

You know, people don't like to call out the game that much.

It feels like, um, I think about it like playing a game of ping pong or tennis or whatever.

And the ball's going back and forward between me and you and me and you and me and you.

And then someone just goes and hits it sideways.

And you're like no, it the supposed to go this way?

Like we're supposed to continue to play the game within the confines and the rules of the game and sometimes going is this thing happening because of a you preference, or because you're trying to look after me, or why don't you?

It feels like it feels a little sort of discordant.

Right, it's sort of one key out on the chord of discordant.

Discordant, not on a chord yes yeah, yeah.

So you're like oh hey oh, that wasn't quite in the flow of the game that we were playing, because you've stepped out of it and then pointed at the game itself.

Well, I would argue that the game that we were playing was this and this.

And the moment you hit it this way, that isn't the game that we're playing.

So I'm not breaking the game.

I'm just trying to better understand what game we're playing, right?

But that makes people uncomfortable, as you have identified.

Okay.

But then...

I guess we'll just play a different game.

I like the, uh, assessment of sort of why are we doing this thing?

And what is the reason that this particular interactions go?

How are you feeling right now?

Like, that's a fucking wonderful question.

Like, how are you feeling?

Yeah.

You know, how are you doing?

Like, how are you feeling?

Um I, I would like to uh take that and raise you a telling somebody how you're feeling.

Hey I'm I'm, I'm comfortable.

It's just a little cold.

Could we, how are you?

Like, I think also, cause I asked people, I asked people, I mean, I feel this way with dates.

I talked about this in my act now, so I don't want to like do too much about it, but like for the longest time, I wouldn't.

I have so many fears of going in for a first kiss, and they're not even that they're not going to want to kiss me back or that they won't kiss me.

My big fear is what if I go in to kiss somebody And they kiss me back because it's easier.

Pity.

Not even pity.

Just not wanting to be on.

Maybe.

But like I think more realistically, it's because I guess maybe I don't see myself as some of these people pity.

But like, it was easier just to go like this.

Like, just I'll kiss him.

It's not that big of a deal.

What is the motivation that you fear?

What would be the ultimate?

What's at the core of that?

It's the same thing of people when people say, how you doing?

Good.

Thanks.

How are you?

Are you interested?

And are you good?

It's fine.

It's just a call and response.

It's a procedural kiss.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, you know, we went on a couple of dates.

It's easier to kiss somebody and then just say have a good night for some people than it is to be like whoa whoa, whoa.

I don't want to set a boundary, say how I feel.

I take things that I used to take things at face value until I realized that I can't.

And now I don't know when I can.

So I'm just skeptical all the time.

And like, so the only way I feel that I get enough information is to ask so many questions.

Um, uh, when we kissed, it wasn't a long kiss.

Um, I kind of wanted to kiss you more, but I don't know if you wanted to make out.

I'm not asking you to make out with me right now, but like if, later on, if we kiss, and like, is it okay if we make out?

You know, and some people might be like, what the fuck are you saying to me?

You know, then some people were raised by the Simpsons.

And when you're able to ask a lot of questions and that they like that, then they ask questions.

Oh my God.

Thank you.

I was dating a girl who I hate spoilers.

I hate spoilers.

If I know I'm going to see something, I don't even want to see the trailer.

And sometimes people give spoilers and they don't realize what they're spoiling.

I'm not, I'm not saying anything.

I'm just saying at the end, I was a little confused.

Well, now I know, you know, the dreidel doesn't stop spinning.

Like what?

Don't tell me anything.

So we're watching a show that she had already seen the first couple episodes.

And she says something that I don't think she realizes.

Now I know something.

This is what I do.

Okay.

I know he's a bad guy now.

I the stakes weren't that high, but I'm still like.

You know, if you're watching a sporting and fuck you know something happens, you get upset.

Like, are you okay?

No, it's fine.

I just, they missed the big bucket or whatever the hell.

I reacted quite passionately.

How many dates in was this?

I mean, we've been dating for over a year.

Okay.

I mean, she knows who I am.

Okay.

Right.

Um, no, it wasn't this, it was this.

And she was like she was acting in a way for my benefit, in a way to be like Oh no no, you actually don't know that.

That's what it is, because here's some red herrings and I don't need fish.

And I mean that literally and metaphorically.

So I'm like, no, no, no, you're acting right now.

I know that.

Cause, and I'm just like, I, to me, it's like, we're playing.

I'm not happy that you scored a bucket on me, but it's still like, I, this is connection for me.

I still like, like, no, no, no.

Cause I noticed this.

All right, whatever.

We sit down and maybe a minute goes by and, and I just, I don't know what changed.

I just know the, I don't consciously recognize why it changed.

I just know, notice the energy changed.

And I asked if you're like, what happened?

And she said that I hurt her feelings.

And I immediately started like literally crying.

I don't just mean I felt bad.

I mean, tears were coming down my face.

At the moment, I didn't recognize it.

I soon thereafter did.

But like, and I'm so sorry.

And I apologized.

When I realized the reason I was crying wasn't specifically because I hurt her feelings as much as I had no idea that I hurt her feelings.

Um, I had no, I like, I'm an adult.

I'm dating this person.

I had no idea her, her feelings, which just made me feel bad about myself.

And like, just like sometimes things like that happen.

And I go back and think about how fucking clueless I was as a kid.

And like I have a bit that I say on stage now where uh, I didn't have friends growing up, but I didn't know that until I turned 30.

I just thought everybody was busy all the time.

Like, no, people just made excuses and stuff.

And like.

And also the point.

The reason I bring that up is because if I didn't say to her Hey, what just happened?

She might not have said you hurt my feelings.

So in the midst of things, if somebody says, Hey, I don't like this.

I would be like, thank you for telling me.

But if you don't tell me that I'm going to keep punching, you know I'm going to keep like doing what I think we're supposed to be doing.

So I like when people ask questions.

I like when people tell me how they feel.

I sometimes have given myself the responsibility to ask numerous times how somebody feels like what you said, but I'm still not convinced I'm going to get the answer.

It feels like you're excavating a little bit to try and find the boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behavior.

Acceptable for the other person.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is this okay?

Was that okay?

Is that going to be okay?

Is this because...

In retrospect you realize that there were an infinite number of situations that you would sort of plowed through, believing one world and the rest of the world seeing a totally different one.

Yeah.

I came into some self-awareness about eight years ago and I learned things about myself and I learned how much I'm missing stuff.

Um, for a couple of years thereafter I was very much that kind of like what you suggested I might be.

That's why I was curious why you said that.

Is this okay?

Am I, should I not?

Am I, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

You know, I'm like using my turning signal when it's a right turn only.

Like I'm just always making sure I'm just joking.

You know, I would say stuff like that.

And like what I realized was before I was clueless about everyone was feeling.

And I thought I was I thought because I I grew up with very supportive parents and I believed them.

I don't know if they were right, but I'm the funniest.

I'm the most charming.

Everyone loves me.

And this wasn't the case at all.

And I was so much happier thinking everybody loved me than when I realized I'm just, I'm bothering people.

But now, you know, I graduated into knowing that I bother people.

So how do I control that?

And what I learned is I still couldn't.

I still did all of the things I thought I was supposed to do and checking in.

And I didn't feel anything different other than low, lower self-worth.

That's not me saying that who cares what other people think.

I very much care what other people think.

The difference is to care and to consider it without necessarily prioritizing it if you disagree.

So if I hurt your feelings, I can't disagree with that.

That's something I want to know so I could do better.

If you say hey, don't put the hat and the keys there, if I wanted them there.

For whatever reason, it's a hat, that I'm promoting something or whatever.

I would consider what you were saying.

I disagree with you and I'd have a I challenge it and I would go back and forth and ultimately we figure out what we do.

Um, so I've kind of hurtled that hump of like I'm annoying everybody and more come out the other end of I probably going to annoy people and just not.

I mean, there's only so much that is in my control.

Um, but My friends in my circle.

I don't think it's a coincidence that they're all people who are able to.

You're being loud.

They could tell me I'm being loud and then I could be like, oh, sorry.

And I could be quiet.

You know.

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That's a very quick uh alchemization of that lesson.

I've learned that people don't necessarily see me or the world the way that I see them or the world.

And again, you can try to change yourself in one way.

Like I'll make sure that everybody else is okay before I continue to do this thing.

Or you can do the other one, which is I'm just going to become comfortable with being corrected by people and try and sort of proactively seek as much correction as possible by instigating it.

And also by picking friends who don't even need me to instigate it.

They're like, Hey, Rick, shut the fuck up, dude.

Like, let's just chill out or whatever.

They, they're your, um, guidance system.

They're also, it's those, it's not just me picking them.

It's the people that are okay with me.

So they're also picking me, you know, because anybody that wasn't okay with that wouldn't be able to.

I'm too much for him or not enough.

Yeah.

I found that that valuing the information of you're being too loud or this or whatever as information, not as as as criticism, really is a great cheat to kind of like surpass the ego of like.

If someone says I'm being too loud, I don't think Oh, I must be too loud.

I'm a loud person.

No, I'm not.

You know?

And then it's like, you're debating yourself.

But when somebody says you're being loud, what they're saying is for for their ears.

This is an uncomfortable volume.

I can't dispute that.

That has nothing to do with me.

The only thing that has to do with me is what I choose to do with that information.

I very, very much agree.

Seek that um, not just the information, but to surround myself with people who are generous enough to offer it.

I think a simple analogy i've said this on my podcast before, but it's like when somebody says you have a booger in your nose, you're like oh, i want to be around this person.

I might not be happy that there's a been a booger in my nose, but i'll be happier than looking at it later and seeing that it's been there the whole time.

You know.

No, i like this, this question of um Self-deception.

Are we aware of why we do the things that we do?

And then we want to understand somebody else because maybe we want to connect with them.

Or we want to be a better person ourselves.

It's like, you broke up with me.

Can you tell me why?

Before you leave, before you get the black bag, can you tell me why you broke up with me?

I would prefer if you let me know why before you decided to break up with me.

That would be preferable.

But that's not the scene.

The scene is that they've got the black bags out.

I'm just arguing that this person probably won't be able to tell me why.

Because they, they would have, I would have known by now.

Maybe, but perhaps they had, they didn't feel like they had the permission to do it.

Perhaps they were scared.

It was a them thing, not a you thing.

How about that?

Okay, deal.

Question for you.

I got a little out of, like, I, I wasn't present with you for like 30 seconds.

I heard you, but like, when I moved like this, I was aware.

Are we able to, how's our focus?

Are we, is this annoying if I'm doing here and here?

I don't know.

Okay.

You're all right.

Nice.

I love talking about this kind of stuff.

I love talking about this kind of stuff with somebody who, uh, one, we don't know each other.

So you but, like when it's like somebody that you might be work like you know you're going to be seeing this person a lot and you're going to be dating them, working with them or whatever.

And like, Hey, let's, could we just talk about how we're wired for just like hours?

You know what I'm saying?

And then we could forget about it, because then, when something comes up, it'll be like oh, this is what I was talking about before.

Thank you for letting me know.

Or would you mind just almost like marinating in potential shorthand that could come out later?

I think it would be really cool to like have a one page that you continue to get a doctor.

You add to it.

You take away of all your faults not your faults, things that you're admitting necessarily, or faults that are like

Here's things that I'm ashamed of, but I don't want to be.

I mean faults that benefit the other person to know.

You know like I sometimes don't make space for other people because I interrupt a lot.

It doesn't mean I'm not interested in you, but you might sometimes have to check me and say hey Rick, I wasn't done yet.

You know certain things like that, I think, as a name tag, i think would be just a really cool way of meeting people here's.

Here's a one-page uh introduction.

This is yeah, this is your induction day.

It's your induction day to our friendship or relationship.

Uh, please make sure you really need to check out uh, section four, the bottom.

That is kind of crucial.

Sometimes people skip over that one and if they do, it usually ends up being an issue down the line.

Um no i, i think that's great.

Yeah i, uh i take criticism about anything personally, Like I get defensive if it feels like I'm being attacked, even when I'm not being attacked.

I go quiet if there's an argument going on.

That doesn't mean that I don't want to talk about it.

It's just that my response sometimes takes longer to happen.

Or I'm sometimes real fast with my responses.

And that doesn't mean that I know what I'm talking about.

Sometimes I just want to talk to fill the space so that I know.

Great.

I'm feeling emotional.

Yep.

I mean, you know, like somebody says it.

And then when that thing happens, you're like, oh, that's that thing.

And that's hopefully what happens as you get to know somebody.

You don't just get to know the pleasures.

You get to know the obstacles.

We fall in love with that, I think.

Fall in love with what part?

We fall in love with both.

But what we don't fall in love with are all of the ways that people are like everybody else.

We fall in love with people's uniquenesses.

And that goes on both sides.

A perfect example, my friend Georgie's mom, she hates fighting.

Does not like physical fighting at all.

Doesn't like UFC.

Doesn't like watching her boys fight when they were kids.

And she was in the car with George's younger brother driving through the UK.

And she saw two teenage boys sort of squaring up to each other by the side of a pavement, walking home from school or something.

She's in the middle of traffic.

Stops the car in the middle of traffic, gets out of the car, runs across the road, over traffic to the pavement to be like no fighting.

No, she was like fucking Killian Murphy in Peaky Blinders.

No fucking fighting.

And she's in the middle.

And his brother was on the phone to him at the time going, mum has just got out.

We're in the middle of traffic.

She stopped the car.

This car's behind us.

They're beeping.

She's in the middle of this fight between these two teenagers telling them to stop.

It's like at her funeral.

People are not going to say that she was the sort of person who turned up on time or made an acceptable flan.

They're going to say she was the sort of woman that stopped a car in the middle of traffic to stop a fight between two strangers that she didn't know.

That's where we fall in love with people.

Also, would have been a good clip.

Would have been a good clip.

But... i think we fall in love non remember nfts when everyone was like into nfts non-fungible humans is the same it's okay what's non-fungible about this person oh that's what i fall in love with because by design if you can find it anywhere like why this person and not the next one or the next one or the next one this isn't an argument for like be as weird and unique performatively as possible but embrace the bits of you that have little tumors sticking out of them like the spiky bits and the the like little divots and stuff that out of this smooth shape because if you try and smooth all of those things off i think you make yourself into a shape that like everybody else can perceive yeah i i agree i also think that uh on the on the other end of that is some things let's not be too proud and think that we shouldn't shave them down you know like i think there's a there's an art i think there's excuse me i think there's a craft to the, the line, but recognizing and making efficient the line between self-love and the want for self-improvement and they're not mutually exclusive, but this idea of, Hey, this is me, take it or leave it.

Um yeah sometimes once, once you've broken it down to its core, and this is what it is.

There's only, you know, like there's only.

I'm always going to have neuroses, but like So I make people.

When I go into my home, I take off my clothes and I change into my indoor clothes.

Old clothes, including?

Anything that's been outside and touch something.

So if I go walk my dog in my indoor clothes, if I don't lean up against something or sit on a chair, they're still indoor clothes.

But even if I just sat in my car.

Depends how wet it is.

I'm okay with rain.

Okay.

It's touching something that I don't know what touched it before.

And it's not about germs.

It's not that logical.

It's just, oh, this is outdoor now.

So it's a pain in the ass, but it's my choice.

But then when people come over my place... Don't forget to bring your change of clothes.

Yeah.

I'm making my thing your burden.

And I'll always have until I don't.

But right now, this is an issue.

How could I... Well, fuck it.

This is who I am.

Then don't come over.

Versus...

How could I help this other person not have to cater to me?

So there are different ways of doing this.

The way that I found is the most efficient is I just got blankets all over the place for you to sit on.

It's obnoxious.

That's a house condom.

Yeah, it's a house condom.

I would prefer to get to know you well enough to where you could take your clothes off and put on something else.

But I'm like an old black woman.

But instead of plastic things, it's just blankets that I'm constantly washing.

So-

I, I'm dating somebody and they're accepting of this.

They come over and they're like hey, I took a shower and I just changed into brand new clothes and I'm like, I recognize this.

I'm appreciative, more than that I'm.

I'm so sorry that you felt you had to do this, but I don't think you understand.

You put those clothes on and you sat in your car, where you've also sat after you were at the gym in those clothes hey, those are outdoor clothes.

Let's, let's just sit on some blankets.

So, like how I am this thing.

I accept this of myself.

I don't love it.

I'm working on it, but I have accepted this is what it is.

If I were to accept what this is and just lean into that entirely, you'd be wearing a fucking hazmat suit every time you came into my house, which then makes it worse and worse and worse.

So by me letting people into my home in their outdoor clothes and they sit on the blanket that's, it's a.

Then sometimes they sit on like somebody on my podcast.

I have blankets for everybody.

Somebody will sit off the blanket for a second.

It used to be, ah, you know, like I need a new couch.

You know, now it's like, I don't even react that way now.

I don't like it, but it's, Hey, could you do me a favor?

Could you, and they go, Oh, I'm so sorry.

Like it's all good.

And now I'm not losing my mind.

That's why it's important to tell them before about the things, because if that thing comes up and you have to do the explaining and the enforcement at the same time, Oh well, I wasn't even aware of this.

This feels like a lot.

I've been pulled over by the police to enforce a law I didn't know existed.

I actually learned that I have to tell them before, not because of that, but because they I do a lot of.

I'm a silly boy.

So they just think I'm making a joke.

So it's not that they're.

No, no, no, no.

This one, this is a real one.

How do you.

It sounds like the thing I said just before the wasn't.

But this one's real.

This one's real.

Yeah.

It's the boy who cried wolf, but for comedians.

Yeah.

It's the boy who cried couch.

Yeah, the boy who cried blanket.

Yeah.

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Thank you.

Yeah, you've got this great line.

The self-love movement is beautiful and necessary, but not at the expense of growth.

And I think that... There's a research guy over here.

It was on a clip.

It wasn't a deep dive.

I think it's interesting that in my world where I come from, the insecure overachiever hustle grind set kind of background.

Insecure overachiever.

Does that mean you're overachieving because you're insecure of where you're at?

Yes.

Well, congrats.

Thank you.

Now we're recording at Disneyland.

Yeah, you can build big shit as somebody that just desperately wants to be liked by people.

But that side of the balance board requires more of the self-love stuff.

It's like hey dude fucking, let me give you this idea.

It's called productivity uh, productivity debt.

So every morning you wake up believing that you're already overdrawn with your day's production and only if you absolutely flawlessly nail your entire day's work, what is overdrawn, like you have too much to do?

Uh, that there is some sort of cosmic karmic debt that you need to repay in terms of output productively.

And only if you do lots and lots of work that day will you claw yourself back up to, at best zero, not one or 10 or a hundred, but you start at minus some number.

And whatever that number is, is the exact number of as much work as you can do today flawlessly.

And if you take too much time off, you realize I finished the day on minus two like, or minus five or minus 10 or whatever.

Um, that's kind of the side of the world.

I think that drawn to some of the stuff that uh, I have talked about in the past, although that's morphing somewhat and has morphed over the maybe the last sort of two years.

Uh, we've spent a lot of time talking about life hacks and and and self-improvement, and training and so on and so forth.

And that's great.

And I loved it, right?

Personal growth has been fucking wonderful for me.

Um, but you can sort of go too far on that.

You know those um, balance board things.

It's like a skateboard deck and there's sort of a cylinder below it and you can imagine that you're standing on it and you're always sort of doing this a teeter-totter.

Is that what that's called?

Yeah okay teeter-totter, thank you.

Yeah british, that's what you're talking about, right.

You're sitting on and then you like if we were on one right now, i would go like this oh no no no, that would be a seesaw.

So imagine a skateboard deck and imagine just a like what's the difference between a teeter-totter and a seesaw?

I think it's the same thing, It's just the British version.

No, it's a joke.

Oh.

No, it sounded like one.

Damn it.

So I don't know what you're saying.

Skateboard deck.

Yeah.

Imagine.

Skateboard deck's like this.

Okay.

And there's a cylinder that's running underneath it.

And you were to stand on the skateboard deck.

So you would be doing this to balance.

Okay.

Do you have this visual in your mind?

I think.

Okay.

At no point are you actually balanced, right?

Or you could pick any on a balance beam.

At no point.

I know what you're talking about. you're always going to be making micro adjustments.

Even when you're like, oh, I'm like really stable.

I know this isn't necessary because I get it, but what I'm picturing is when you twist your ankle and you do rehab, you're on a board with a ball at the bottom and you're just constantly like if it's too left, you got to go right and you got to do this.

Yes.

Okay.

All right, let's go.

At no point is your foot completely flat.

Even when it's really flat, it's still just making little micro adjustments here and there.

And I kind of get the sense that this self-love and growth tension thing that we're talking about.

Well, you know, accept who you are.

Don't whip yourself so much that you're permanently miserable or always in a sense of lack, or never feel good enough.

But also don't be so accepting of yourself that you make your pathology somebody else's burden, that you are never galvanized sufficiently to actually go and fucking do something with you right okay, so on one end you have a victim and on the other end you have like, an unrelenting tyrant of the self and uh, i think that the tension between those two is interesting.

And where do you come from?

Which culture do you come from, and where are you on the balance board right now?

I think about that often before i go on stage.

Um uh, i'm assuming you know, but i'm a stand-up comedian.

So when I go on stage to do comedy and um I I, uh I don't know if nervous is the best word, but it's it's, it's an it's, it's the best, it's the best way I can think of to explain the feeling.

It's a feeling of nervousness, but it's.

It's almost like um the, the space between.

What am I going to do?

And I've been doing this many times and I always feel this way.

I know it'll be fine.

Right.

And um, My mom says to me sometimes before a show at least she used to, now she's she said be funny.

Just like a thing to say.

And I would always, I say, and now she, I say, I'll try.

I mean, maybe, but the only thing that's in my control is to be present.

And it sounds corny, but I really say that to myself, because if I go in with the responsibility of being funny, what if I'm not?

And I very well might not be.

And if that's what I need to be, then I might fail.

Not that there's a problem with failing, but I don't want to set myself up for this idea of I might be failing when I'm just trying to get in a mindset.

If I'm present, I believe that that's the best opportunity I have to be funny.

So if I'm not going to be funny today, chances are it's because I wasn't present.

And if I was present and not funny, then I wasn't going to be funny anyway.

Wow.

So you found the thing which is further upstream of the outcome that you're actually looking for.

Yes.

And you're optimizing for that thing.

And one of the reasons I'm thinking of that is one of the reasons that that, one of the ways that helps me do that, is well, you know, it's easy to say, to be present um uh, as a like affirmations, this idea of looking in the mirror and saying I'm good enough.

I'm smart enough.

And gosh, darn it.

People love me, whatever.

Like, If I don't believe that, then the guy, then he's not going to believe it.

So what can I believe?

And what I can believe is this idea of this like acceptance versus getting yourself better.

I know I can be better.

I want to be better and I want to try and be better, but I'm about to go on stage in one minute.

This is the best I could be right now.

So this isn't about being better.

This is about fully accepting.

This is my, this is my best.

I have, and, then tomorrow I could be like, well, I wasn't prepared.

I remember a buddy of mine uh, David Sullivan, who also is an actor, and he coaches me as an uh when I for for things as an actor.

And I remember years ago he was helping me for this audition and I was just like I didn't learn my lines because I'll just learn them with him.

Um, and that's fine sometimes, but like the amount of time we had and then we did the audition and I'm just like I just didn't know.

Like I just I'm.

I'm not present because I'm thinking about my lines and it's not that big of a deal.

It wasn't that deep of a thing.

It was just, it clocked for me because he goes, he goes, uh, how does that feel?

And like, I was like, yeah, I understand.

Like he's the parenting me.

He goes, just no, don't, don't put yourself in a situation to feel that way next time.

Now I've been in situations where I didn't prepare enough for an audition or whatever.

I'm not saying that like it's changed my life, but it offered that perspective of if there's something that you could do about it, do about it.

Do it that way next time, but don't sit in shame and like maybe I fucked, I shouldn't.

This is where we are right now.

Do this and recognize if you don't like that feeling, try and change it next time.

If you don't mind it, then you won't.

So when I go on stage and I'm thinking like, what am I going to do?

It's like the best I could possibly be, which might not be great, is to just remove that thing.

Because then you know, I'm sitting here and you're talking, I'm like, am I in focus?

Whether I'm in focus or not isn't my responsibility.

Maybe it doesn't matter that much either way, but until I address it, you know.

So, um yeah, I think that self-acceptance is a beautiful thing to do for today.

And then tomorrow, look at who you were and do you like that?

It's been um, it's been a a very, very intentional journey for me over the past eight years of like learning.

Is this okay?

It's this, is it okay that I'm coming at this?

This is a, not a real, I'm making something up right now.

The answer um, at least not consciously.

But is it okay that I'm coming in here and talking too much?

Talking about feelings, not doing bits?

Is it, Should I have worn my sunglasses because I think I have a sty on my eye that's showing.

Like all of these things, like I don't want to care about anything.

I don't want to care about anything.

But then that's too far the other way.

So like constantly doing this and going like and ultimately and this is maybe a corny thing, and it's a Snapple bottle, but like I love who I am

I love who I am so much.

I might be wrong.

I also think I'm so funny.

I do.

I'm on stage sometimes and I think I'm so funny.

I also know I might be wrong.

I don't want to not feel that way, but I don't want to feel like, no, I'm not that funny.

But I also don't want to think that you all think this, because then there's nothing to grow from, you know.

So this constant thing of like, I love who I am.

Am I being received accurately?

And if so, you don't love me, that's okay.

If you're not receiving me accurately, is there a better way I could have set this up?

Is there a one page that I need to give you?

What do I need to let you know to give me the best opportunity for us to enjoy each other?

And it's exhausting.

And that's where it's like, at a certain point, did you watch The Simpsons?

At a certain point it's like your frequency isn't better or worse than mine, but it might be different.

And if we're like this, then I'm going to have to meet you here or you're going to have to meet me here.

But if it's close enough, you know.

So that's where I'm at in my life now of like recognizing if this person's close to my frequency, I think I maybe need to make some adjustments.

If they're not close to my frequency, I, What do we do?

Yeah.

I don't need to learn your amazing vocabulary for a language that I don't even speak, you know?

So like teach me things if we're speaking the same language.

And if we're not speaking the same language and we're working together or you're the sister of somebody I'm in a relationship like, then you have to do that thing where you dress a certain way and you you squint and you lean forward and you like Oh, that's so, you know, that's nice.

And you, you give a firm handshake and it says it's not consciously manipulative.

But I do think it's like I also talk about on stage, this idea of like when people say how you doing.

I used to really struggle with it.

I would be like, what do you want from me?

You know, like, I don't want to tell you.

I don't want to talk about that.

I don't, we're just walking our dogs, but I've learned it's a call and response.

And when someone says, how you doing?

They're not asking how you are necessarily.

They're just letting you know that they see you for a minute.

And then you say good things.

How are you?

Oh, In therapy, I was like, it was a, it was a, I call it a challenge.

Maybe it was homework to like, just start saying good things.

How are you?

Even if you feel it's lying, just see how maybe you get used to it.

You know, it's like people sitting on a blanket instead of changing their clothes.

So I do it.

And sometimes someone will say, how are you doing?

And I go, good.

Thanks.

How are you?

And they go, good.

How are you?

And I'm like, I'm like, you started it.

You know, this is, this is fucking crazy.

I'm right.

This is crazy.

Have you ever seen someone do uh?

Or has it ever happened to you where someone said a happy birthday and you go?

Oh yeah, you too.

That's actually a Brian Regan joke.

Is it?

Do you know who that is?

No.

Yeah.

When someone says something, you go, you too.

And you're like, Oh yeah.

Um, yeah, that's just that innate feeling of like, I better give them what they gave me.

Yeah.

You do know that you're kind of the inversion of most people's self-work, right?

That you having to learn not to say what the thing is.

It's like well, to be honest, I woke up with a star in my eye and I've got this conversation to do later on today.

What's the opposite?

Good, thanks.

How are you?

From what you're saying to me it sounds like your set point is I don't do small talk, struggling intensely with small talk and the social mores.

And the typical dance that most people do in the elevator or with the dog is one that i am having to consciously teach myself to do, to understand that these are the mannerisms of, just like normal human, shallow communication.

So most people have to do the opposite, they have to detrain that stuff.

Well, a kid does that.

That's, it's like, it's like a child.

Like a child you're say please, you know you have to condition snow.

Yeah.

Well then we're not going to, you know, we're not going to go to the strip club or whatever.

You know, like you have to teach kids to do stuff.

And those pros and cons to that.

A lot of people say, I love kids.

Cause they'll just tell, tell you the truth.

Um, I don't believe that telling the truth is an excuse to be unkind.

Uh, there's definitely tact to that.

But like not telling the truth because you're afraid of how somebody might receive you, I think is a very selfish act.

I think that when people say things like well you know, some people will diagnose themselves as a people pleaser and they've allowed themselves to believe, because of the term, that what they're doing is pleasing the other person.

But what I think that they're doing is that's what you do.

No, no, no.

What you're going to say is they're pleasing themselves.

Yes.

They're protecting themselves.

Yeah.

I want to make sure that this person doesn't see me in a bad way, as opposed to allowing them to see me as I am.

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It's such a great definition.

I think that's really wonderful.

I think you're right.

I think that people, a large portion of the motivation of people pleasing is not to.

It is to make sure that the other person is okay, but it doesn't end there.

It's making sure that they're okay with you, to make sure that they're okay so that you can be okay.

And and i think a great, a great test of that would be hey, i don't want to tell him that he has a booger in his nose.

That's not my job.

Maybe his person who does his makeup will.

And when the makeup person tells you I'm not thinking like, oh no, I'm sorry.

I'm thinking, I'm glad they said it.

So it's not the information that you're receiving that's going to not please you.

It's I'm the one who's delivering it.

And again, there's tact to this.

Sometimes I don't owe everybody my truth.

I don't need to tell you everything.

I have found through, originally a lack of awareness and then through making jokes, that oh, there are ways of maybe delivering things to where it's more palatable.

I don't know how you're going to receive this information.

I don't want to make my choice based on how you're going to receive it.

I want to make my choice based on, do I think this is valuable information for this person?

And the only guiding star I have for that is would I want to know that, if I would want to know that.

But there goes again where I also want to.

Hey, I want to leave my hat here.

I want to set boundaries.

Also, you're not representative of everybody else.

Would you want to know that?

Yes.

But if you are as non-fungible as it might seem, you can't use your theory of mind to be well.

I would want it.

Therefore, they and it's like yeah, but you're not them and they're not you.

I think at a certain point, with us being imperfect humans, there are just ways of calibrating yourself to like you could only police so many things.

And that's where the acceptance is.

I am going to annoy people.

I'm going to bother people.

I'm not saying fuck them.

Who cares?

I'm saying I'm trying not to, but I'm only going to put so much attribute points into me recognizing when you're annoyed, especially when I go up to the conversation and I say I'm a little high.

I'm doing bits.

If you don't want to do bits, I'm out of here.

If you do the disclaimer bit, that's why the disclaimer bits are the one sheet.

I think that's a really, really lovely way to frame it that you do have an obligation to be as nice as you can be, but no nicer than you're able to be.

You're not supposed to turn yourself into a pretzel desperately trying to be able to make this other person feel at peace.

Yeah, by default.

And then they just got out of a relationship.

They're sad.

Their parent is sick.

Okay, I'm going to have to tune this up.

I need to invest a little bit more.

It's constantly yeah yeah, and you're calibrating that way.

Um, one thing that makes me think about the dog walking scenario.

I lived in new york for a month this summer and i fucking i thought it was so brilliant.

I've never been there before and um, there was a like classic new york dog park on the upper east side, like east 83rd street and uh it's, when you're talking about the dog walking thing, it just makes me think about that.

It's like fall, it's sort of walking, and there's a strip of 100 yards it's not big, it's new york 100 yard bit where someone might have a conversation for 90 seconds in that.

One thing that you do have as part of this sort of mutually aware.

I know that, you know, that we have the time that it can't be the thing.

I already know what you're saying.

You need to know that if you open up the fucking chasm of well, you know recently actually, my sister or like you you say a thing now, so what's going on with you?

If you give that, it's like, oh well no, let me tell, and you go.

I didn't want to lie and just say good, how are you?

But also i do not have the time to invest to be able to tumble down this fucking rabbit hole, this alice in wonderland cathedral of bullshit down here, in order to have the conversation that would be truthful.

So sometimes i think the, the social mores, are there almost in the same way as like that is, or waving somebody across a junction.

It's, it's even less information than you think it is.

What is that with a less information?

How are you doing?

I'm good.

How are you?

Right.

Fine.

Thanks.

Like that is, it's almost the same as flashing somebody across with your lights in a car.

When people say, how you doing?

And I don't want to talk about it.

Um, uh, uh, uh, I say hi back.

And sometimes if it's not, is in passing, how you doing?

I'm in a little bit of a mood.

I don't want to get into it, but I'm okay.

Like just letting him know that's.

That's where I've like discovered where I could feel like I'm satisfying your rules while not um compromising mine.

And by rules, I just mean way of life, you know?

Um, but yeah, that's, that's the thing.

That's, that's the, that's the kissing on a, on a first date.

Is it like, are you good?

Thanks.

How are you?

Or are you just not wanting to get into it?

Going in for a first kiss is constantly a scary thing.

My, my.

My reaction to that type of type of fear isn't the same as it used to be, but that still there's that moment of like.

Do you want to be doing this?

You know?

And I feel that way, you know, I recognize it right now.

Like I'm not worried by this, but You and I have made a commitment to talk for 60 to 120 minutes and, whether or not you think this is going well, you're going to continue.

Is he continuing because he feels like he has to?

It's not a worry.

It's just an awareness of it.

It is what it is, and that's what being a professional is.

How do you detach the emotion from that?

By knowing that I'll never know the answer to it.

Well, if you ask, you would.

Whatever you tell me, because I don't know you yet and we're still fucking with condoms, I don't know if you'll be telling me the truth.

Are you?

Are you wanting to, as the host of this show, manage my expectations and feelings to get what you believe is the best out of me, or demoralizing you by saying this is a car crash or this is great?

Or even assuming that that's demoralized.

Some people might want that.

Yeah.

Ed from the call again, like, Oh, he told me a little bit.

He was like, yeah, actually we do need to, can we shift you to the left a little bit?

Or can we move the fucking hat out or whatever?

Oh, he told me something that's, and I suppose this is a. stress test.

It's a little truth test of oh, is this person prepared to tell me something that might, in the wrong hands, be something that makes somebody upset?

Two interesting ideas on that.

The same friend whose mum stops fights in the middle of the street.

Who makes a whatever flan.

Yeah, makes an acceptable flan.

He asked me at his 30th birthday last year, he said, who's your best friend in the world?

I was like, bit of a weird question after age 12.

And he said, okay, let me reframe it for you.

Who can you sit with in silence without the need to fill it?

And who can you speak to with the least amount of filter?

I was like, ooh, that's cool.

Both ends of communication, both silence and talking.

Which of those feel the most unencumbered, like the most frictionless, and just sit in fucking silence next to each other on a train, not even reading or using our phones or whatever?

Not feel that's that's?

That's a direct analogy to the not having sex with somebody until you feel safe enough to be able to tell them I have performance anxiety.

You know what I mean?

That's a, that's a more insecure example of it.

But yeah, it's what you're saying is who's your best friend is hard thing to answer, but who do you feel safest with, isn't?

And that's I mean.

I know I've said this as jokes, but that's really, and I don't mean this directly literally, but like people who grew up watching The Simpsons.

It's not just watching The Simpsons.

One long ad read for The Simpsons.

But really, really, I really, there's two things.

There's two like tests.

You don't need to pass either of them, but it's valuable information.

It's not just people that watch The Simpsons.

It's people that chose to.

They like this type of humor.

People that think farting is funny and people who watch The Simpsons I think are genuinely nice, innocent people.

Okay.

When people don't think farting is funny, there may be some trauma.

I know that there are.

I have some female friends that have issues with the way that their mom receives them, and they need to be beautiful.

They need to be a certain thing that the mother believes is what makes a woman.

Bummer.

Pun not intended.

However...

When you think it's just gross or whatever.

And yeah, of course it's gross.

I'm not saying do you think farting is something that you want me to be doing on your face all the time?

I'm asking if you think it's funny.

And if you don't think it's funny, I know that we're not compatible.

I know it.

You're saying that the tip of the spear of your social Venn diagram crossing over is Simpsons and funny farting.

You know what?

To be a little bit more fair, you don't have to think farting is funny.

I want, I've never, I've never been in, and this wasn't a conscious choice.

I've never been in a relationship with somebody who didn't laugh at farts.

I don't think that's a coincidence, but it's not that you don't think farting is funny as much as if you think farting is gross.

Like if we're sitting around and I have to go to the bathroom to fart, I'll get 40,000 steps a day.

You know, what do you want?

Are you a big farter?

Who isn't?

Well, I guess it depends what your baseline for big farting is.

Exactly.

And whatever your baseline is, come on over.

Just change your clothes and sit on a blanket.

Okay.

Whatever you fart, if you fart 10 times.

How do you feel about, how do you feel about farting?

Because that's kind of turned inside clothes into outside.

It's actually turned inside clothes into inner you inside clothes.

Yeah.

How's that feel on the couch?

Yeah, farting on.

If you fart on my couch um, how'd that feel?

You know it feels good to fart it does, but how did you, how do you and your couch?

Fine, we're fine, it's farting, hang on, i i do feel like we need to.

Farting isn't outdoor clothes.

Those are indoor clothes right, but they are now contaminated with the inside of me.

They're not.

Your pants aren't off.

If you pulled off your pants and farted, I would say well, you fart on the blanket.

Right.

Okay.

It's coughing in a mask.

I consider underpants and pants.

So pants are like fart condoms.

I've been saying it for weeks.

Pants are fart condoms.

Yeah.

It's my merch, actually.

Imagine.

Pants are fart condoms.

Come on.

That's fucking crazy.

Is that fucking Oz Perlman, the mentalist?

I knew I was going to go here.

Yeah.

I think you need to reassess this.

I don't want to contribute to your blanket anxiety.

Contribute, but go on.

British.

Just farted.

Why are you laughing?

I think you really need to check yourself on this.

I think that there are far more microscopic poo particles... Oh, I know.

...getting through pants and jeans...

Onto the blanket and into the couch.

I have thought about this.

It's not zero.

No, it's not.

It's inevitable.

Yeah.

They're farting.

You were worried about the sweat from the gym clothes.

It's like I said, it's not that logical.

It's not about the sweat.

But I just, I want you to try and be consistent.

Okay.

May I?

Because you're playfully challenging me and I'm all for it.

Before you go into my bathroom, I am going to tell you.

Before you flush, please close the toilet seat.

Ooh, because you don't want it to be atomized?

Correct.

What if it's only pee?

Please, it's not that big of an ask.

You could just fix this with a Japanese toilet.

I try not to have... I don't have a Japanese toilet.

Okay.

Maybe that would be just to consider for future.

Also, I was going to make a joke, but I'm realizing I don't even know what a Japanese toilet is.

Is it one of those heated things?

It's automated.

It's got the built-in bum spray.

Oh, yeah, they're amazing.

With the bidet and stuff?

Yes.

Yeah, I want to get one.

And that would fix this problem.

No, it wouldn't.

I've pissed and shit in them.

I've come at a few.

And they don't close?

Yeah, they don't close.

They close.

Some of them close.

But you do your thing.

You flush.

Maybe it's closing as there's flushing.

And you're worried that there's... It's like Indiana Jones sneaking under the door as it comes down.

He grabs his hat, but instead he's flicked poop particles out.

Okay.

Which also is another people.

So I want to control the poop particles and the pee particles in certain places.

But you're controlling it in the room which has the most sterile, lowest amount of soft furnishing.

Here's my logic.

If you have to fart, you're going to fart.

You're just going to try and hide it from me.

What if it's gratuitous?

What if you know that they're forcing them out?

It's probably going to be funnier.

So you can offset.

I know that you're going to fart.

It's not a matter of fart, don't fart.

It's just, let's see it.

Let's see it.

See it?

On my podcast, yes.

You see it.

We do a lot of animation.

Like my podcast is one that you have to, you don't have, I watch it. there's i like the street fighter selection thing i enjoyed when you were doing that oh thank you i didn't mean you in particular i just meant like i want it to be digested with the visuals because we do a lot of stuff including animations people when people go like this even i add a little fart and a little shit that comes out and it stays there for a second like i'm a little boy i think it's really fun and funny um yeah it doesn't you know and it's not that logical like i have a dog i got a dog for a few reasons two of that that i'll explain that are relevant is One, I thought it would help with my OCD because my ex-girlfriend, I was obsessed with her dog.

And when she would bring it over, for whatever reason, the rules didn't apply to him.

Like I was okay with it.

Outdoor dog, indoor dog.

We would wipe his paws before he comes in.

But we wouldn't wipe his butt, his belly.

He would lay on the ground.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's on the stuff.

It's okay.

Because the alternative is him not on the bed with us.

Or having to bathe him every time he's come in.

Which ain't going to happen.

Yep.

Yeah.

So I realized, wow, this is, this is, you know, immersion therapy in a way.

Yep.

Another reason I got a dog is because, especially because I work so much on my podcast and I do a lot of editing and I would go if I don't have shows.

I would go three days without leaving my house and I didn't get out of the house.

I'm like, this is an excuse to get out of the house.

Yep.

I'm out of the house a lot more now.

Um, I used to once you go outside the outdoor clothes, but then I'm like I go, I walk, I just won't sit down.

I've allowed myself to go outside, maybe even in the rain and come back in.

So like, I'm getting better by challenging myself and the dog let me do that.

Um, farting is, you know, the dog could be on the blanket.

A fart is fine if you're wearing, you know, a condom.

Right.

Okay.

So farts are the dog of the indoor outdoor world.

Also, if it's funny enough, you know what I'm saying?

Like, I feel there's a hack to shame and that's finding a bit in it, right?

Like, I'm embarrassed about this thing, but if I could say something funny about it, I don't know.

Is that because now I feel valuable and I use it as a tool?

Is it because I now am being seen in a way that isn't the way that I thought I would be seen?

Is it just the connection I have with somebody who could relate to it?

Whatever it is, if you can make a bit out of something, it's easier, right?

And I feel this way.

I mean, of course, then there's like, oh, you're joking all the time.

I'm not saying make everything a joke.

What I'm saying is, if there's an uncomfortable conversation, there is craft involved into either saying things like setting expectations properly.

Hey, there's something that's been on my mind.

It's not that deep, but it's something that bothers me.

We don't have to talk about it now, but do you have five minutes of space?

I could let you know something that I've been feeling a little embarrassed about.

It lets the other person make a choice to do that.

Sure.

And that's a great tool.

Another one is that's not as exhausting.

And asking so much of the other person, especially if it doesn't really involve them, is Hey, I have a sty in my eye and I brought sunglasses and I might want to do this.

And is this, you know what?

Could we just do glasses?

Could we do sunglasses for a little?

Of course.

Cool.

And now the bit is, we're wearing sunglasses, but that made it easier for me to admit to you something that might've been hard to say.

Now, that wasn't hard to say, but like farting a buddy of mine, um shout out to Andy Kozel once said Buttholes have the best comedic timing.

And I think that's so funny and true.

You ever hear a fart and you think like, I didn't think that was a good time for that.

And if so, it's the best time for that.

Oh, I was going to say we're not compatible, but yes.

I see.

If you don't think that that fart was funny, you might be a redneck.

Do you have that over there?

No.

Okay.

No, we have, what do we have in the UK?

We have chavs, don't we?

You might be a chad.

Chav.

I don't know Chav.

I know Chad.

Chav.

So the only equivalent we have of kind of hick.

So imagine Gypsy without the caravan.

You're not supposed to say Gypsy or hick, just so you know.

You just did.

I did it.

Redneck.

Is hick allowed?

I mean, you'll see the comments.

Well, look, I'm like somebody who hasn't had whatever reckoning around culture and class.

I think it's okay.

I was just...

I'm fine.

I'm insulated because of the British accent, hopefully, until I get cancelled.

I was on Tucker Carlson this week.

I survived that.

That's okay.

Has it come out yet?

Yep.

It was the day that all hell broke loose and the entire internet decided to point the sights at Tucker, Candice and Nick Fuentes all at the same time.

I just had a conversation about what I think men should be doing maybe and how they they're struggling a bit in school and work and stuff.

And there was this huge crossfire and I had to do this.

There were all the fucking bullets flying over the top of my head.

Is that a concern for you?

Or is it just something you noticed?

Just something I noticed.

I mean, I was on set all day.

I had two wonderful, Monday was fucking brilliant.

I had Trevor Wallace in.

I think it's great.

And it's the first time I got to meet him.

It was so much fun.

And we went for like two and a bit hours.

And then I had Huberman for like three and a half hours.

And we got to chat before and chat after.

That's great.

I'm fucking sweet.

And you come out and you go, Oh, I'll deal with that later.

But no, it's fine.

I wanted to tell you a story about John Bellion.

Do you know who that is?

The name sounds familiar, but no.

Musician, recording artist, producer behind Justin Bieber and Rihanna, like Ed Sheeran.

Gazillion plays, like billions and billions and billions of plays.

I had him on the show in New York.

He told me this story about his son.

It made me think when you were talking like this is why kids are great because kids don't have the filter.

And I think some of the things that I'm like hearing and feeling from our conversation today is this balance between growth and self-acceptance, between being true to yourself and helping somebody, like being kind, like being nice to somebody, which doesn't always mean necessarily telling them what they want to hear.

Kids kind of sit interestingly like skewed off to one side, where they do very much tell the truth but can also like and the innocence allows them to get away with more, which is interesting because i wonder whether, if we all of us spoke more like kids, i think there's something about it's a projection of the innocence and the intention i've.

I have misophonia and when people are chewing, it sounds sounds, it drives me.

When a dog is doing it for some reason, not only am i okay with it, i love it And I don't know.

Don't you like them licking buttholes as well?

He was licking his penis in the sound of it.

That was a Christian Bell episode, did you see?

He was licking his penis and there's something about that sound where it's just so cute to me.

When a human licks his penis, I just, you know, why am I watching this?

Why is Marilyn Manson in my bedroom?

Isn't that funny?

I've talked about that recently too, that fake rumor that everyone thought he took out a rib so he could blow himself.

Yeah.

Everybody around the fucking world knew that.

I haven't thought about that for a decade.

I'm so glad that we're tapped into the astral realm.

And that was pre-COVID.

That was pre-COVID, yeah.

Imagine how much fun you would have had.

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So John does this show.

He does two stadium shows in Long Island.

He doesn't tour for five or six years, comes back, writes this album and has dedicated his life to his family now, whilst also still doing the producer thing, but he's not been front-facing.

And people come over to his house so that he has his limited time away from his family and his kids, whilst also like living his dream and doing his thing as possible.

So he's curated his life around his family and decides to do two stadium shows.

I think it's on back to back nights.

He only rehearses for three days so that he spends as little time away from his kids as possible.

You know, his new album is father figure.

So it's all about being a good dad.

And he had this amazing dad.

He's on prime now.

And, um, He does the show and he's done it.

It's like 15 minutes drive from his house.

And he's brought his kids there and his sons there, maybe like five, something like that.

And he's got a little playpen at the back with his toys.

And he's thinking to himself, I've, you know, haven't toured for ages.

I haven't put the shows and I've dedicated so much time.

Like my family's going to be there.

My friends are going to be there.

I'm like all this stuff.

Super excited.

He finishes up the show after having done this and he goes to go and see his son.

He says, what do you think of the show?

He went, I didn't like it.

Why?

Well, he sang the first song and then he just kept singing.

He's kept on singing more and more songs.

And I thought, when's dad going to be done?

So he'll come play with me.

And you're like, that's someone just saying what they fucking want.

But also they, the kid thinks that the show is bad because he didn't get his dad playing with him.

He was giving the wrong critique.

He wasn't critiquing the show.

He was critiquing that he was doing a show.

I don't like this kid.

Now Huberman, I saw at the airport recently and he saw my dog and he was playing with my dog a bit.

Oh, you have emotional support credentials for your dog?

Um, I don't want to, that's none of your business, but I have my dog.

I want to know how you, are you smuggling it?

I'm doing it all the right ways.

Okay.

This sounds like an area for investigation.

So I'm have the dog and Huberman, uh, is likes dogs and he's playing.

And my dog is, it's, it's insane.

It's insane.

He's perfect.

Yep.

And he's right.

And blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I had this feeling of like not that I'm somebody who he needs to know who I am, but I did think like if you knew who I was, you would probably want to do my podcast.

And I didn't say anything to him.

You didn't pitch him?

No.

Didn't use the dog as like a thirst trap?

No.

He came over to me.

But I didn't ask him to come on my podcast.

The same reason why I wouldn't ask a woman who I just met for the first time at the gym to go on a date.

It's not right.

How do you think about tact?

You're in the city and the world, the industry of networking, business stuff.

I'm all for asking.

I mean i think we have the same agent.

I mean i could just ask my agent to forward an email then say hey, we met at the airport.

Like i, maybe i'll do that, i haven't.

Is that what you're asking?

Like i'm all for asking people for things yeah, just again.

Uh, we've talked about kind of the emotional dynamic of this, like within the emotional world, But there's also the professional world.

And I think about that a little.

It's an uncomfortable feeling.

I feel because I do.

I book myself and I do this.

I feel like there's producer Rick and then there's like comedian Rick and producer Rick feels like it's high school.

And I'm following up with people that I don't want to.

Not that I don't want to, but I don't want to bother you.

So like asking Huberman to be on my podcast at the airport when he's liking my dog, it would be like me going in for a first kiss before I have enough data.

It's like, what if he, what if he says yes and he just feels like, oh, I don't know.

I'm like, do you, do you want to be here?

Like this idea, I, I, men, you know, women, women are scared a lot.

Like women go through life in a different way traditionally than men.

Of just like, like.

The analogy I think of is like I went into a coffee shop and there was this big dog and he It wasn't even showing his teeth.

It was just like this dog could do some damage.

And the person that was holding the leash was talking to somebody else and not really paying attention.

And to get in, I had to go around this dog.

I wasn't necessarily afraid of the dog, but I was looking at the dog the entire time.

And I really thought to myself, I think this is how women feel around men.

And I say this because like, wait, hold on.

Huberman, I'm trying to think of the analogy.

I'm now forgetting what I'm saying.

And I don't want to because I feel like I want to talk about this.

Why am I saying that women are afraid?

Anyway, I just think we need to do better.

And I think that musician needs to tell his son, like, you know.

Shape up.

You know.

I think he was saying, asking too much, the fear of following up producer Rick, comedian Rick.

Yes.

Let's move on.

You know what?

We're going to move on because I learned what you're supposed to do.

You can just interrupt.

Oh, but I loved it.

I loved what I was thinking.

You would have fucking freaked if you heard it.

I hate when that happens.

How do you respond to caffeine?

I stopped drinking coffee two years ago.

Okay.

Because it gets me sometimes too high, but that's not why I stopped.

It was because one out of 20, I would get anxious.

And I started taking this.

I'm sure this is fantastic.

I've heard nothing but the best from New Tonic.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, wow.

It has L-theanine as well?

Twice as much as a sleep supplement.

So it might be.

Anyway, let's not roll the dice on one in 20.

But I take a drink called Magic Mind.

Do you know about that?

The little green shot?

That's got caffeine in it.

Yeah.

So for whatever reason, it's the right amount for me.

What made you ask about caffeine?

I was like, oh, maybe you need a little tick, tick, tick.

Just a little tickle.

A little more or a little less?

I don't know.

Have you had any?

I took them before this.

Ah, that might be it.

Well, I don't know.

It's weird when you lose your train of thought like that because you go.

The solution is either too much or too little caffeine.

And I don't know which one it is.

I think I just got into my body just the empathy I have for how difficult it is for women in this world to have to not only show up as themselves but to have 20 of their brain making sure that they they, stay alive.

Meanwhile, guys are just walking around getting their cock sucked and drinking caffeine like it's a, you know, on a thursday.

Well, it depends who you are, i suppose.

Uh yeah, i think there is a.

There is definitely an asymmetry.

It's interesting that um, so i didn't want to approach huberman like a woman and just wow, that might have worked.

I've been a fan of his uh.

Uh, i don't want to call it a fan.

I've been.

I mean yes, but i've been listening before, not even listening like reading his stuff.

My, my ex who, who lives in London, I spent a lot of time in London, love being in London.

Uh, she turned me on to Huberman, I think in 2019.

And there's like so many things that are now just like I just used to go out in the sunlight in the mornings.

Like I know that's like a big trope at this point, but like cause of that, there were so many things um uh uh, learning about histamines, and uh and nightshades.

And there were so many things.

And I'm just like.

This is a guy that Has now gotten really successful for having an audience appreciate his knowledge.

So I'm like, I really like this guy.

You know what I'm saying?

So it's like seeing a girl that you really like where it's like I don't want to, just I don't know.

I feel like it's not appropriate here.

I'm not saying I'm right.

There's a nice amount of reverence there.

You're like, oh, I'm going to treat this one properly.

I mean, you know this.

And for the girls out there, I would wager fewer relationships start if you have sex on the first date than if you have sex on the fourth date or the 10th date or something like that.

That um, giving it up too quickly and sort of being too fast too soon uh, is indicative of how much you care about the relationship overall.

Do you think that's a direct, like that's a literal uh statistic?

I would be, because i agree, but sometimes not like i.

I just get the sense that there's a few dynamics at play here, uh.

First one, biological we tend to value things that are difficult to get more uh.

Secondly, the time from meeting to getting physically intimate with somebody is usually, if you wait longer.

What it suggests is that is not all that you're here for.

Uh, just those two.

We don't even need to go deeper than that.

Like that's enough to carry this dynamic through.

I think it would probably appear in data.

Yeah.

My last three relationships were uh well yeah, but there's, there is um uh, there's more information, which is we.

It was long distance and we were FaceTiming for months.

Okay.

So, okay.

So the first time we smelt each other and actually we're in the same room.

But you've spoken for 50 hours.

Yeah.

And I've learned that I like I even if it's like we're in town, I'm not scared to go on a date.

But let's say you and I don't know if we want to podcast with each other.

We could find out by doing a podcast or we could FaceTime for a little bit and see if, like you know, if you think farting is funny, go get tested.

That is.

That is one of the interesting things about having conversations with people, especially because you don't

If you've been the episode, especially something like this, where we've got the fucking cars and the team and all the rest of it, it tends to be a big deal.

If you're like, oh, fuck, that was so bad.

But there is no practicing in private.

We'll go through the moves yesterday.

For podcasting?

Yeah.

I think there is.

There's a reason that you wanted to have me on the podcast.

Not that you still agree with that reason or that you don't, but you got information.

That's what's different about being- Okay, that's research, but you're right.

You are right.

But you can't do I mean, especially for somebody that doesn't- You're researching this person based on their Instagram.

How's this dynamic between us going to go?

It's all data collection.

I really believe that dating for the first X period of dates is less about showing a person who you are and them showing who you are, and more about which I don't like this, but it's more about like showing up in a certain way you're supposed to and they'll do the same, and then over time that degrades into who you actually are.

But you can't show up as you actually are on a first date because they're gonna be like oh, he farts on the first date, what is he gonna do on the second date?

I'm gonna fart again.

How much, how much deeper does this descend?

No no no, this is as deep as it goes.

Yes, unfortunately for you.

So so facetiming, i think and it's not specific to facetime it could be like if you know we're not making a commitment to each other and you're on, you know you're with a group of other people and like you're getting to see a little dynamic without feeling the pressure of needing to wear a certain outfit and ask how many brothers and sisters you have, and like get to know the person, i think facetiming because you could also always just hang up safety thing is a big deal on that, if you're talking about oh, some part of this is, i mean, i know for a fact.

Girls will say to their friends this is where we're going.

This is the time.

This is the place.

Like you've got my location.

If I don't text you by this time, then maybe give me a ring or whatever, because that safety pieces is a big part.

Uh, I imagine that there is a way to be made to feel unsafe over FaceTime, but it significantly more safe, right?

Yeah.

I mean, it's also, when you say safety, it's not just physical safety.

There's also just like your own you know, your social battery and your sense of comfort.

And and like, depending on the person, if you're not enjoying it, do you just?

Oh yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Or do you say things like I've learned so much about how to communicate with people by editing my podcast.

And when I watch myself, I used to when I would get bored in a conversation.

Not that the other person's boring, not that I was meaning to judge them, but I would just be honest saying Hey, I'm a little bored with this.

And like, we talk about something different. some people were, it seemed like they received it.

Well, some people may be like, oh, and that became the topic of conversation.

Then we would talk about communication, whatever.

Yeah.

But I would watch myself.

And as I'm watching from the audience, I would see, I'm not bored.

What, but this person is talking about on, on the monitor, but I was bored in the room.

She thinks going on there.

I think that was going on.

There was, I wasn't interested or I missed something.

And I was wondering if I was in focus or not.

And I, I just like, I'm not connected.

Right.

And I mistook not being connected to by meaning I'm not interested.

So instead of saying I'm not interested in this topic, like I would watch myself and be frustrated, not just of how I enjoyed this in person.

Yes.

Well, no, maybe, but not specifically that it was, I was frustrated.

One that I showed up as somebody who shut somebody down not meaning to, but I did, but also like I want to hear what they said.

And now we never got to it.

Like me as the audience wanted to hear more about that.

So in moments where I feel that way now, I don't think to myself, this is boring.

I think to myself, if it is, we could take it out later.

I think to myself, I'm not connected.

How can I get connected to this person?

Could you say that differently?

I don't know what you just said.

We say that again.

I wasn't listening, whatever it is, but like, yeah, I don't know.

Sometimes, sometimes being bored doesn't mean that they're boring.

However, if they are, I got to get out of there as quick as I can.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, this is going to sound how it may.

If somebody doesn't make me laugh or teach me something, or feed me or make me come and I don't mean me, I mean a human being, I believe then what value are they offering me?

Now, I'm not to say, if you make me come and that's all you do, that this is a healthy relationship, but I mean this quite literally.

If you don't feed somebody, if you're not their boss and they pay you.

If there isn't some value that you're offering me, am I just supposed to be a good guy and just be like no, it's okay.

He's a nice guy.

I want to listen.

What would you say about a friend of yours who's in a hospital bed and he's looking after?

I don't understand the connection.

That they're unable to really offer you anything.

I don't mean every interaction has to be valuable to me.

That I mean.

I would argue that that by being able to show up for somebody in a selfish way makes you feel valuable.

You know, it's this idea of like when you give to charity, are you doing it because it makes you feel good, because you're helping them.

Absolutely both.

I'm glad it makes me feel good or they wouldn't get this help.

So I don't mean everything.

I need to be constantly entertained or, you know, constantly validated by something.

I just mean in a relationship as a whole like, do you have any friends that you were friends with as a kid and they're kind of grandfathered in and like you love this person and you hang out with this person, but whenever you're with them it's just this is boring.

I'm still friends with this person because I love this person and I care about this person.

I'm not excited to be around them and I'm not, I'm not, it's just a little boring.

So like.

But when you're just meeting somebody and after three dates or three friendships, I don't know man, I just like he doesn't get my jokes.

I don't, he doesn't make me laugh.

That's okay if he's interesting.

Your podcast isn't the funniest podcast I've ever seen.

And it's one of the few that I watch.

And I love your clips.

I mean, whoever picks your clips, you know what you guys are doing.

But I'm interested in what you have to say.

Am I learning?

Probably.

Is it just?

Oh, even if it's something I disagree with and it challenges my mind, it's like I don't know.

It's something it's worth listening to me.

So this idea of going out with people or being friends with people that are boring.

And I'm not saying that you're a boring person.

I'm saying that I'm bored by you.

You know, our frequencies, yeah, our frequency.

And I, the opposite is, I probably annoy the shit out of you and you're not wrong, but why are we just?

Well, they're nice.

And why don't you give it a try?

So dating is that way too.

So I think that when you have a FaceTime with somebody not that believe me, I do not need to have a FaceTime.

I backwards learned that like, oh, that, that was interesting.

I, by the time, I was on my third FaceTime with this person, which is potentially only 45 minutes of conversations total, which is less than one date.

I'm so excited to meet you.

And if I wasn't, I don't want to waste my time.

Life's too short for boring friendships in that way.

Yeah.

And boring.

I'm skeptical because I've said this once before and I saw a comment that wasn't what I meant and I believed that they received it this way, which was like well, some people are boring.

Like not everybody is a comedian or friends with comedians.

I don't mean like, You got the best punchlines.

I just mean, are you talking about things that are interesting to me?

Well, here's one way to do it.

In fact, let me give you this little essay, which is pretty cool.

So Jenny Jerome, who was- Mr. and Mrs. Jerome's kid.

Winston Churchill's mother.

She once dined with both Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and his rival William Gladstone, and consecutive nights.

When asked about her impressions of the two men, she said When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone I thought he was the cleverest man in England.

But when I sat next to Disraeli, I left feeling like I was the cleverest woman.

Some people are interesting.

Some people make people feel interesting.

It's the difference between being interesting and interested.

And this idea, I came up with a reverse charisma.

Most people think that they want their stories to be energizing, their aura to be electric or whatever.

But what you actually want and what i find myself being around, more than even that, someone who comes in and is like fucking jazz hands is wow, like i really feel fucking seen here, and maybe this is part of the connection, maybe it's the frequency thing that you're talking about.

But if somebody, why do you see, feel seen when somebody comes in doing jazz hands?

No no no, i don't.

My point is somebody that comes in and has this very electric aura, or it maybe is, as you said uh, less boring out there lots of stories, all the rest of it, like whirlwind of, doesn't leave you feeling seen, but that's fine.

And I like being around those people, but that the skillset to be able to be that sort of a person, to have that kind of charisma for want of a better word, I think is uh, typically quite high.

And maybe that was what triggered the person who left that comment saying well, some people are just boring.

Maybe they thought that they are that kind of person.

I'm a little bit lower energy.

I'm a little bit more thoughtful.

I'm a bit more shy.

I'm a bit more whatever.

Thoughtful isn't boring.

Okay.

But if you don't say much right, let's say you just don't get the words out that quickly or you don't think that quickly when it comes to like telling whatever.

If somebody feels that, if somebody feels like they might be boring and they're worried that they are.

I mean one thing is to go and have some life experiences and become a little bit more confident with your communication, all the rest of it.

And that's great.

And you should do that too.

But a much quicker route to making people feel comfortable around you and to connecting with people is to just get really good at asking questions.

And that the bar for that, I think is significantly lower.

So if you ask the question, like, how did that make you feel or why, or what did you mean by that?

Like as somebody is telling a story.

If they're even remotely compelled by what they're talking about, that is them away for ages.

Now you, as a question asker, now have to deal with whether or not that person's interesting to you.

And again, this is the compatibility.

But if you're someone who thinks like fuck, I wish I was more socially competent or I wish that people, I seem to like people, but I struggle to contribute to the conversation in a way.

And I'm worried that I don't have much to talk about.

That right there, that awareness...

Of what they maybe think is a shortcoming.

Is your superpower.

So if somebody doesn't know what to say.

So they just don't say anything.

Maybe that is boring.

And I use boring as a blanketed statement.

I know it's blanket.

But hey guys.

You're all so charismatic.

And I feel like I have no idea what to say.

I am so invested now.

I'm like, what do you mean?

I didn't even realize this.

What are you feeling?

I don't know.

You guys are doing jokes and I feel like I'm not saying anything.

Oh, fuck.

Should we all be quiet?

You know, like, should we put on our sunglasses?

We could find a game together.

It's interesting that you've got.

So what you keep doing, the strategy that you keep going for, is calling out the game.

So have you ever read Escaping Flatland?

It's a book from like 1850 or something.

It sounds niche as fuck, but you might know it.

The book from 1850?

But it's super famous.

It's a...

A book about a two-dimensional world.

And you know so many things.

I guess it's your job now.

I've just spoken to a thousand people, and I'm like the end of a thousand-person human centipede.

So what I've got left is nutritionally very non-dense, but there was lots of it.

Great.

Great analogy.

It's actually my shirt.

I'm sorry, I messed up the momentum.

Go on.

This book is about a two-dimensional world Flatland, and a three-dimensional sphere comes down to Flatland.

And this sphere is a circle and the circle is able to make itself grow and shrink inside of Flatland and the citizens are amazed.

What they don't understand is that this sphere is moving itself through a dimension that they can't see.

It's not getting bigger or smaller.

It's just getting closer and further away.

Exactly, exactly.

What you're doing, at least what it sounds like to me.

Your preference in terms of conversation style is, or what you would like to see more from some people, and your advice is again, like we said with the game of tennis is to almost say well, why are we using the racket?

Why can't we use our feet?

Or does the net need to be there at all?

Or can we leave the stadium?

Why don't we hit the ball straight up, as opposed to across the net to each other?

You're moving on a dimension that is not within the confines of the game.

I think what I'm comparing with myself is I tend to try and um achieve the same thing that you do, but within the confines of the game.

I think I have less bravery socially for calling out that sort of stuff than you do.

So what I would do and this is from a decade and a half of running nightclubs, standing on the front door of nightclubs, like there is a particular sort of game that needs to be done.

You need to do it really, really, really quick.

So I need to keep it within this, but like this person's like too drunk.

So I need to come up with a way to play the game but also get them to realize they're not fucking coming in, or to get them downstairs before the door staff see, so that we can get their five pounds off them, even though they are too drunk to come in, or whatever it is that we're doing.

Right.

As a part of that, what I like and what I find fun as a game is to see whether or not I can get the movement of the conversation for the shy person to feel more included, or for the uh extroverted person to shut the fuck up, or for the funny person to be more funny or whatever, within the rules of the game.

And I think that that's the challenge, maybe because of a insufficient social bravery, to break the rule of the game and go and become the sphere sort of growing and shrinking or just I don't know preference or whatever.

But I i'm thinking like huh, how much do i do what rick's saying he does here?

How much do i like punk the game or call out the game like, how much do i say what's going on, versus try and get the outcome that he's trying to get, but within the confines of the game and i think typically i do i do the latter.

I want to talk about this for for a while okay okay, dig in.

First of all, when you it seems like when sorry, can i have another water, guys?

Same please yeah uh, it seems like when you are talking about calling out the game versus doing it within the game, as if those are two separate worlds.

I don't want to have to go over here.

That's not what we're doing.

I don't see us talking about which way we hit the thing is going over here.

If you've never played pickleball before and you've played tennis, we could just do it.

And then you step in the kitchen or whatever.

I don't know the rules well enough.

And I can be like, oh, you stepped in the kitchen.

And then you'd be like, oh, you know, so you're out or whatever the thing is.

And then eventually, you know, you'll figure it out.

Or you can be like, hold on a second.

So let me really quickly explain to you.

This is what we're doing.

You might have questions.

Maybe you don't.

I agree.

The difference is that socially the rules are unwritten.

Uh, in pickleball, the rules are very explicit.

Where are the pickleball rules written?

There's got to be a document.

Have you, have you ever played pickleball?

Yes.

Have you read the document?

No.

They're unwritten then.

That's true.

But they're written somewhere.

They're not.

Yes.

Somewhere they're written.

I'm not, but who, who's reading them out of all the people.

I actually need to interject into your interjection here, which is I have a friend who lives in Austin Texas, who did precisely that and did read them and broke the game of pickleball so badly that they had to litigate his new move out of the sport of pickleball.

It's like adding the three-point line.

He is Indian.

I know.

Which says a lot.

This unwritten rules.

I have a document of a lot of things I would want to do.

Some of them are chapters.

Some of them are examples.

Thank you very much.

Dean, are we okay with it down there?

That's Dean.

Oh, hey, Dean.

I want to write a book because there's so many things that I never knew are like you're supposed to do.

Good things.

How are you, for example?

And I want to do a book called Unwritten Rules Written.

And just this idea of like, oh, here's, you know, here's why when you go up, show up to somebody's house, it's nice to bring flowers or a bottle of wine, even if you know they don't want it.

And not that you have to do this, but here's what some expectations are that if you don't do them, at least let that be your choice.

This is your prep document, but for being a human rather than for dating you.

For being their human.

Because being a human is How much is it based off of my intuition of what I want and what I like versus what you're telling me I'm supposed to do?

Can we discuss...

A list of things I have that are some of the most difficult to do whilst looking dignified.

Yes.

And after that, I want one of us to remember to go back to talk about the game thing.

Game thing.

Picking up a moving ping pong ball.

Very difficult to do with dignity.

Like if I throw a ping pong ball over there and I'm like, Rick, would you grab that for me, please?

And you're like, you stumble after it.

You're not an athlete.

Starting a stopped bicycle.

I get it turning around ever eating a little bag of cereal with your hands yes yes uh, trying to consume soup that's too hot.

On the opposite end um, eating from an ice cream cone that's melting, and you got to move real quick and get around the sides.

Yeah yeah, you're like bonnie blue.

Um, You're out working how, working out how to sleep inside of a blanket in a room that is too hot while you're too cold, or while it is too cold while you're too hot.

You're like OK, do I go arms under and just poke my head out like a little mummy, or do I take my arms out and then pull it back down?

That's making me think of being in a bedroom making love to somebody and then going into the bathroom while they're still in bed.

If you have a small ass.

If you have a small ass?

Yes, I have a small ass.

So whenever I walk to a bathroom, I either have to moonwalk back so they see my big rock hard cock, or I have to say I have a little ass.

Don't look at me.

Why is it still hard?

Well, it was hard, but still, I guess it's not hard.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is also, by the way, I used to be very embarrassed.

Of course, it's embarrassing to be seen naked.

I mean, it's a vulnerable thing.

But if I'm going to be intimate with somebody, And they see me soft, that's fine.

It's going to happen.

If a woman ever sees my penis soft before hard, I am humiliated.

It's okay to have gone from grower to shower, but not from the soft to hard.

It's like, okay, as long as you've seen the Statue of Liberty as it's meant to be.

It's almost as if I think that she thinks when she sees my penis soft.

She thinks is that his penis when it's hard?

Right okay, so so have you ever called that out?

Just so you know.

Darling, this is soft right now.

It does get harder than this.

You told a?

Um, i don't remember what it was, but it was a love note from a husband to his wife, and the reveal at the end is she is no longer with us.

Beautiful, i've watched that a couple of times uh, and it makes me cry when i do.

Yep, he calls her darling, and to hear you say darling in that voice, in this context, when that way of darling is associated with this is really Is what it's like.

Pavlovian response.

Okay.

Um, sidling into a booth at a sports bar and you have to be the one that's right at the very end.

That's the one that I connect out of all the ones that you said.

That's the one that I connect with the most.

Closing a car door whilst holding two bags of luggage?

No, that's the fucking coolest.

You use your knee or something.

You got to do that like no, that's cool, you don't have to do that.

And why are you putting the luggage so high up?

Keep it down here and give it a little nudge.

Okay, all right, fair enough, you don't have to go like this.

Well, you do.

You're like uh, it's like rom-com.

And you've just got back from the date.

And you're like ah, and you're like yeah, i'm drinking from a straw during a fight.

Fucking dude, drinking from a straw is so good.

Trying to catch a straw, that's like you've got cup over here watching something or talking to somebody and you miss it and you go.

See, I think that's just fun comedy acting.

I think even just going for a stroll, my instinct, even when by myself, is... Like a horse.

You look like a horse.

You know when it does that thing where it goes like... Have you ever seen that?

Yes, you have.

Punk in the game again.

Why don't we just move on?

Okay.

Tell me about the rules of the game.

Nay, it's over.

Nay.

So, do you have more, though?

What else have I got that's in that?

Yeah, you can go.

The idea of, and if you have any, call them out.

But the idea of the rules to the game and setting them up.

I think that that is literally getting on the same page with somebody.

So we could get on the same page by just kind of maneuvering and seeing if we could figure it out.

But what's the, in the list of pros and cons, what's the con of you saying, wait, hold on a second.

I'm confused with this or hold on a second.

It seems like you and I are on the same page.

We have to, you have to serve it to the opposite end of the court.

Like what, what's, what's the con for not wanting to do that?

The con for not wanting to.

Well, the con for doing it is easier to make the case of um, just that you have to.

That's what I meant.

That's how I'm going to break the flow of the conversation in order to be able to talk about the conversation.

And typically for some people that feels a little bit uncomfortable.

Yeah.

So you're cannibalizing the momentum.

Yeah, of course.

We're back and forth and we're back and forth and we're doing the thing and it's like Hey, no stop.

And I think my point around where are the rules of the conversation sport written?

And the fact that they aren't, I think what I'm The reason that I feel more comfortable, and I feel like most people would feel more comfortable talking about the rules of pickleball than they would.

The rules of the conversation, in whatever form you think that that exists is legitimacy.

Because someone, somewhere knows there's a fucking ancient scroll that's got the pickleball rules written on it.

Well, there's an ancient scroll that says you're supposed to say good things.

How are you?

But is there?

No, I don't think there is not in the same way because it's unconstrained.

Here's another one.

Let me give you this one, which I love as an example.

Your capacity at pickleball is not judged as being close to your sense of self.

I'm not saying.

And for a professional pickleball player or somebody who is a insecure overachiever, maybe you do feel like your performance in pickleball at the local pickleball league determines your self-worth.

But most people would say if you made some error in the game of pickleball by stepping into the kitchen, that doesn't mean that you are bad or that you are lesser.

Yeah.

And I think what a bummer that if you make an error and you say oh, he was an Indian guy, by the way.

And you're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that.

Oh, that you're a bad pickleball player.

Okay.

He's a great pickleball player.

He's number two in the world.

No, I'm being sincere.

I'm saying that like If you do something bad and pickleball, it's not going to affect your self-worth.

Traditionally, you're saying

Where, if you get in a booth and you have to go to the other end or a girl sees your flat little bullshit ass.

I'm less than.

What a bummer.

Well, that's true.

My point is when we're talking about conversation.

Sorry, even me addressing it stops the momentum.

A little, but it's funny.

It wasn't that funny.

All right.

Well, I mean, you did it.

Yeah, but... Which side of this debate do you want to defend yourself or not?

Oh, I didn't even realize that's what I was doing.

No.

I'm like, I'm interested in this.

And like, I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

I'm like, just noticing like, oh, like the momentum shift.

Okay, this is what he was talking about.

And I'm just trying to form an opinion on that just then.

But now I'm feeling like I'm stepping on what you're saying.

And you called me out on something that I'm a little confused with.

I was just trying to, because you said, bummer, it's funny.

You said bummer, presumably because you thought it was funny.

And I'm like, well, you said it, presumably because you thought it was.

I said it's funny.

You said, no, it's not.

I'm like, which one?

You can either say it and believe it or say that it wasn't funny, but you don't get to do both.

I mean, I guess, were these rules written somewhere?

Do you want to talk about it?

Okay.

In my mind. the bummer is a throwaway you familiar with this term over where you're from tag little tag there's a difference and we don't need to get into it cool throwaway is um if you hear it enjoy it or don't if you don't hear it it doesn't it doesn't it's there's no exposition in it it doesn't matter it's just something it's like oh yeah nice car so it's my fault oh man you are an overachiever so what i'm saying is when i need to make your bummer my fault You're flat asses now.

I just wanted you to say that.

Your bummer is my fault.

Let me fucking finish this thing.

In conversation, your ability to converse, to make the other person feel socially comfortable, to be accepted by the group.

You're playing within the confines of the game in a way that is associated with your sense of self-worth.

And a good example of this to compare the two.

When I first started doing the show, I wanted to become a better speaker.

So I got a diction coach and an improv.

I started doing improv and I did some other bits and pieces.

Some of my friends said to me, well, now that you're doing speech training, what about your accent?

What about, you know, what if they degrade your Northern accent, North British accent?

And I was like, well, you know, I'm not going to be able to completely get rid of it.

And that's not even my goal.

I just want to become better at speaking.

But I noticed that they wouldn't have said the same thing if I was a pianist, and I said that I was going to go and get a teacher to teach me to be better at the piano.

No one would have said, well, what about your beautiful, natural way of playing the piano?

And you go, well, there are objectively better and worse ways to play the piano.

And by working with a teacher, I can become better.

There are objectively better and worse ways to get words to come out of your mouth. be more precise.

You can use your consonants to allow things to clip and sound more effective.

Okay.

Why is it that someone sees the way that you speak as close to your sense of self, but the way that you play the piano is not close to your sense of self, in that if you were to work on it and improve it diligently and deliberately, that's good in one scenario and slightly odd, and almost like you're warping yourself and changing yourself.

And to just do one more loop back to the pick a part is thing.

I think that was one of the reasons that women have an ick around finding out that men have sort of done dating training because well, who are you really?

If this is you curated and cultivated and improved because you learn dating or something.

Well, where's you?

Where are you in there?

And there are some things that are close to our sense of self and some things that aren't.

Pickleball, I would say, except for a very select few of professionals, is not close to your sense of self.

But conversation is.

So when you call out the rules of the game.

But we're still talking about the game.

We're not talking about the person.

That's true.

But I think that the person and the game, when it comes to conversing, is merged much more closely than it is in many other pursuits.

I believe you.

I just don't feel it that way.

I also don't even connect with what you're saying about speech coaching and piano.

I think that I play the piano and I think there's literally a term of phrasing when you play and the way that you phrase and the way that you move between chords is your accent, is your uniqueness.

Signature.

Yeah.

If you were playing sheet music and you play to the rhythm and you play the notes that they're doing.

But there's a reason that this person sounds different than this person, similar to acting.

I did a commercial with Jim Parsons.

Do you know who Jim Parsons is?

He's one of the guys from Big Bang Theory.

And we talked a lot because at the time I was on a multicam and he's on a multicam.

Multicam is a TV show.

Single cams and multicam.

Multicam is one that's a play, but there's a camera.

So there's no fourth wall.

There's a live audience usually.

And traditionally plays.

You don't improvise too much because there's so much choreography with the blocking of the camera, switching and everything.

On his show, on Jim's show, which is Chuck Lorre, where he's known for.

Not only are you not allowed to improvise, you need to pause when there's a comma.

It's very exact.

If you're going to be a great multi-cam actor for this type of boss, hit your mark, know your words, know your pauses.

But then well, what about what I bring to it?

What about my phrasing?

You're going to have your phrasing built into it, or you'll be a robot, right?

And I feel that way with a piano as well, as much as dictation.

I mean whether it's your accent or it's your charisma of like, putting things aside and adding your own little twist.

Whatever it might be, it's it's as a comedian.

It's called fine.

I mean, most artists, it's like finding your voice.

What's your voice?

Do you know who Sebastian Maniscalco is?

Yes.

He's one of my favorite comics.

When I tell people about him, I tell his joke, I can't.

I'm not able to do his joke.

I know all the words.

Despite being a comedian and also knowing the joke.

And appreciating it.

It's not like I'm saying something that's not funny to me.

This is funny.

I know all the words.

And I do this professionally.

I cannot do his thing.

I cannot do it.

It won't work. it's his phrasing it's his faces is this even if i do the same timing um anyway i'm realizing that like this the the past like 40 minutes has been a little bit of us um i can imagine uh me uh like contradicting the conversation of what you're saying like i even said when i said about the piano i saw you on like this um I just want to acknowledge, pardon me for saying the rules of the game.

I'm having such a good time and I love conversations like this.

I also could imagine it's going all over the place.

I'm having a ton of fun as well because it allows the.

It's not meandering, but it's allowing you to go was interesting, which is cool.

I also think like when I watch your stuff, I like I have I have these thoughts.

I like I don't talk to you, but the things like, oh, fuck.

Yeah, that's great.

I don't know.

What is he?

And I'm like, I'm just now consciously recognizing, oh, I'm watching this.

Yeah, you just happen to be an active participant.

So to kind of bring it into Lando, to put a bow on the conversation thing, the reason that I liked the inverse charisma idea Which is getting people to believe that they're interesting.

Yeah, by being good at asking questions, is that assuming that probably some significant cohort of people that that is pretty useful to are maybe a bit shy or a little bit more introverted or not super confident?

I think that you can go from a shy and introverted to being good at asking questions, to maybe being interesting at telling stories.

I think that the black belt level of this is doing what you're doing and saying why don't we call out the game itself?

I think the amount of bravery that's needed typically in a social situation to be like.

I'm feeling a bit bored at the moment.

Anybody else feeling a bit bored?

Why can't we, why don't we talk about something else or whatever, especially one-on-one with somebody?

That requires a leapfrog of bravery that I think most people would struggle to get to.

You're doing reverse charisma right now.

How so?

By telling me what I'm doing is black belt and making me feel like I'm good at something.

However, I think what other people do is the harder thing.

I'm not doing the hard thing because why not?

I think not acknowledging the thing is where I'm uncomfortable.

And if I wanted to challenge myself and I have done this, uh, I have a story.

Maybe I'll even tell you about this if there's time and you're interested, but this just happened.

And I had to call a friend that was like a sponsor, for I was going on a date with this girl and she kept pushing the time back and I same day.

So the story, uh, okay.

Um.

So there's this woman that we've never met, but we followed each other on social media for years.

At any given time, if we're both single, there's maybe some mild flirtation and there's not.

So we don't know anything other than our projections of what they post, right?

I go to a city, being vague on purpose.

I go to a city and I'm doing shows there and she wants to come to the show.

Now, I'm only doing two shows and some cities tickets sell well, some not so much.

These were sold out.

And I happen to have saved a guest list of tickets and I have two tickets saved for her.

And I don't know what show she wants to go to.

So I saved two for both.

Friends wanted to come, people that sell, whatever.

It's not that big of a deal.

Like I could give these tickets away.

If I don't, I don't, whatever.

Um, so she was coming to the first show, but I still saved the second show, because who knows what happens.

Um, the day before the first show uh, she didn't tell me.

I checked in saying Hey um, do you?

Uh, you know, here's the place.

If you, if you come, blah, blah, blah.

I'm so sorry.

I have to, I'm out of town.

I'm working, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But, um, uh, I want to come to the other show.

And then the day before that show she messaged me and goes Hey, is it possible?

I get two tickets so I could bring a friend.

I said, I already have two tickets for you.

My friend who comes with me, who opens the show, he has some friends in town.

He asks if there's any way we could get tickets.

I only have these two tickets and I'm giving them to somebody else.

Not that big of a deal, but whatever.

I got a text after the show that 15 minutes after I went on, hey, sorry, I can't make it.

It happens.

It does.

It would have been nice if you told me before the show I could have given these tickets away.

It's just.

It's not necessarily a red flag, but it is something that I was disappointed and it happens.

I really want to see you though.

Um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So we plan this day.

I'm doing these things this day.

I'm free at this time.

I tell her that she tells me where she lives, blah, blah, blah.

My assumption, and I'm aware it was my assumption.

My assumption was I said, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm done at this time.

I'm free at five that since she didn't say I can't do five, we were going to meet at five.

Um, When I finish my thing at 4 something, I message to make some plans.

She goes, hey, I'm da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

I'm going to take a shower.

Let's meet at 7.30.

Let's meet at 7.

So in my head, I'm like, yeah, I made the assumption at 5.

Great.

There's shows in town that I could do.

A friend invited me to dinner that I can't go to because I'm going on this date with this girl.

7.04 comes because she said she was going to pick a place because I didn't know.

I said, I understand it's very masculine for a person to pick a place.

I found these things.

If you like them, let's do them.

If not, I would love a little bit of help here.

Where should we go?

Uh, 704.

And I'm saying it's 704 because on my head I'm like I'm waiting for her to message me, but I also don't want to gamify this.

I'm, I didn't get the information.

She's not a great texter, at least not yet.

Um, I don't, it's 704 where, Hey, where, you know, did you figure out a place yet?

At seven 30, she said, I'm so sorry.

I'm running a little bit behind.

Can we make it eight 30?

I'm now thinking to myself, we said 5 to 7 to 8.30, but we have to take the 5 off the table.

That was my assumption.

But why don't we split the difference, the tickets that I couldn't give away?

It's just, I'm like, what are we doing here?

So I'm already now feeling, once we move it to 830, I'm feeling like my ego doesn't even want to meet this person anymore.

It is what it is.

At 8.30...

Um, at eight 30, not before eight 30 at eight 30, she said, Hey, I'm sorry.

I'm running late.

Uh, I want to make it nine.

If you don't want to meet now, if it's too late, I understand, but I still really want to meet you, which you don't want to meet.

It wasn't that I could look it up.

It was basically what I received.

It was her feeling bad that she pushed it back.

Um, while also not not conceding that she didn't make this a priority, not this being me, this being her commitments.

Um, and if it's too late, I understand giving me an out, but letting me know I still really want to see you.

I'm now like, I could have gone to dinner.

I mean, if we made it nine 30, I could have, you know?

Um, and I wrote I'm not thinking like okay, if she comes, comes.

And, by the way, the plan where we were going to meet was now um, she said I'll come, she's going to come to my hotel.

This literally, it's an awesome hotel with a fun lounge downstairs.

There's no, in my mind, assumption or, or, There's nothing hookup about this.

It's just she's now going to come to me for a convenience, I guess.

And I'm thinking to myself.

There's no way I'm going to be able to say nice to meet you and not call out the game.

This is fucking nuts.

And the tickets into this.

So I wrote a letter, a letter, I mean, a text, a letter.

I actually kind of want to read it.

And maybe this is embarrassing.

I didn't send it.

Okay.

Can I pull it up?

Yeah, yeah.

So I wrote something that I knew I was writing this for me, but after I wrote it I'm like should I send this?

And I sent it to a friend who, I'm glad, told me no, because his logic was and I agree with this, you could always say this later.

If you end up meeting this person and you feel safe and it's brought up, you have this, you're in touch with your feelings.

But before you ever meet a person.

So if I didn't give you the setup and I was just, and someone would be like hey, Rick's a bit much.

What do you mean?

Let me show you this taxi center girl that he never met.

You'd be like, dude, you're fucking out of your mind.

So I want to add the context.

I'm aware of that.

But this is how I articulated it to myself.

And I wanted to send it to her.

I don't know how embarrassed I'm going to be yet because I don't remember this yet.

I didn't send it.

It's a caveat.

I wanted to share something before we meet because, if I didn't, I think I'd end up canceling or showing up in a way that doesn't feel genuine.

I've been feeling frustrated.

We were planning to meet at 5, then move to 7, and then to 8.30.

I turned down a stand-up show and another podcast so we could get together, which I was happy to do, but it left me feeling like my time wasn't really being considered.

Same with yesterday.

I didn't send this.

By the way, at 930 it uh, at nine it moved to 10 and she apologized that her friend is going through something and she lost track of time, which she didn't lose track of time because you told me.

Um, and, uh, she's running, I'm running together.

I'm getting together.

Um, I said, Hey, at this point I'm at my hotel.

Uh, if you want to come, I'd love to see you.

If not, it is what it is.

You know, I'm, I'm now I'm not doing anything anyway.

So, um, She tells me at 10, 20 something that I'm in the car.

And then she said, well, technically I'm waiting for the car.

Is now still okay?

I said, yeah, come.

Her Uber is maybe 10 minutes away.

30 minutes goes by.

And I said, are you coming?

And she said, yes, sorry, five minutes.

I thought she meant she's in the Uber.

It's five minutes away.

After 20 minutes, I realized, oh, best case scenario, she meant the car is five minutes away.

When she said that, I messaged her back.

It was a bit passive aggressive.

It was my only way of feeling like I'm being honest.

I said, oh, I didn't realize you were crawling here.

And then she ended up getting there at 11 something, drunk.

Drunk.

Which, by the way, I am so unattracted to people who are drinking.

It's the grossest.

I'm not saying it doesn't serve a purpose.

I'm saying I don't want to be around it.

It's not hot.

A drink is different than you know, I could tell you're drunk because your lips aren't the way they're supposed to be.

You know, it's just like, and I'm like, now I'm fucking forced to do this podcast with her for 90 minutes.

By the way, Daniel Craig was there.

Okay.

That's cool.

Very.

And I go, that's James Bond.

And this is his own thing, but she goes, who?

And she's looking right there.

I'm like, be fucking cool.

And she goes, that's not him.

And I was just like, all right.

I'm like, you know what?

You went through the 90 minutes?

Yeah, I was there with her for 90 minutes.

Why did you not just pull the ripcord?

Can I tell you the truth?

Yes.

She's unbelievably beautiful.

And I'm not proud of this.

She's so beautiful.

Even drunk?

There's a difference between being attracted to somebody and thinking that they're attractive, right?

I was actually happy that I wasn't attracted to her in that moment.

I'm like, oh, I'm glad that this is not okay with me.

Meaning that... But I wasn't enough to where I was like, hey, you got to get out of here.

Also, the conversation wasn't the worst and she's the meanest.

It was... If it were a podcast, it would...

I wouldn't have posted it.

And I don't think I've ever done that.

You know what I mean?

But I was like, she's so beautiful.

And this is just get to look at this thing for 90 minutes.

It's, it's, it's less, it's more, it's more, um, childish than that.

It's like, I'm trying, I'm, I'm taking this to myself as well.

Like it's somebody that got grandfathered in.

I've we've like I've I I, this person that I've been wanting to meet.

Now I don't know if I'm going to like them or not.

And there's, there wasn't any type of like, uh, like this crazy draw to them.

It's like, this is really, and then I was excited all, all week to meet this person.

And then I do, and I just, wow, she's so pretty.

There's something, it was just, I'm in this cool city.

I'm in this cool hotel.

It's this beautiful girl.

It's just, it's really fun to flirt.

It's really fun to flirt.

I like 1130 PM after it's been pushed, but I I don't know if I would have.

I commend you for uh.

First off, not sending that.

Secondly, I think the way that it's written in terms of like this I just want to state to you this is how I'm feeling and this is why

And I think it's, you know, it's pretty balanced.

Uh, I commend you for going through the 90 minute thing.

I think my bitterness radar is my, my pissed offness.

Uh, i wouldn't have been able to reach equanimity and then drunk, i would have just been like i, i may have buried the lead within five minutes of meeting.

I told her all of this.

Uh, i forgot to say that.

Did that relieve that?

I think, the only reason why we were able to have the 90 minutes?

Yeah okay, she came in and she said how embarrassed she is and how sorry she is, and i said i wrote a.

I said i wrote a text to a friend that i never sent to you and now that you bring this up, i kind of want to tell you some things.

Right, i didn't read it to her, but she and i told her yeah yes i, i hear you i i, if i had i not said that, or had i said that and she received it yeah unkindly, i think even with that dude, i think the drunk thing would have just i would have been like am i, is this?

This is a practical joke.

This has to be a practical joke.

I thought i, i thought i thought not even the drunk, i thought the way it kept being pushed back, i thought it was.

Are we going to see how long he's going to be willing to do this thing?

With your group of friend girlfriends going, i'm fucking stringing this guy along.

I'm feeling a bit self-conscious right now about admitting something that was true, but not the only thing about.

Oh, because she's so beautiful.

I mean, she is.

And that was true.

But that wasn't what drove me to wanting to have the date.

I mean, if I wasn't attracted to her, I wouldn't want to have it.

It was when she showed up.

There is a novelty to this thing where it was just like that's what I meant about more childish, like this idea of like this high school thing, of like Oh, this pretty person wants to hang out with me.

Like I could pretend that didn't exist, but it does.

You know, I feel that way.

I feel that way all the time with my podcast when people come over.

And like when Sebastian came over, there's no way he's coming over and doing this if I don't have a podcast.

So like, but I'm still aware of like, this is fucking crazy.

It's a little bit like being a porn star and getting to have sex.

Like they.

I mean, they might want to do this, but they wouldn't be doing this if we weren't at work.

Like they're doing it because all of the cameras are here.

Yeah.

So, but I get that simulacrum of like, we're friends for like 90 minutes or two hours.

We're friends.

And I get to ask you questions that I wanted to ask you.

Yeah.

And I feel like... And you have to answer them, kind of.

Yeah.

I mean, or otherwise, like, you know, I'll ask you different.

Yeah.

But yeah, there is this feeling like I both love who I am and feel like, why wouldn't you want to be friends with me?

I also... have this thing.

Like I told you, I didn't really have friends as a kid and I didn't even recognize it.

I didn't feel unincluded, but I was and I didn't meaning.

I didn't recognize what being included means until I started playing basketball.

And like, these people are forced to be my friends, but they also, we have the same goals.

Porn star, podcast guest, basketball team.

So that still exists for me.

It still exists for me where like, I become friends.

Do you know who Lisa Gilroy is?

No, I think she's one of the funniest people in the world.

She's been on my podcast a bunch now.

She's an improviser and an actress and she's unbelievably funny.

She comes over, and when she comes over and I've said this to her like it feels like I'm so glad we're friends.

Like you want to be friends with me, right?

The way we play with each other.

There's this feeling of like when people want to be friends with me and I know it.

Where it's not like oh, finally somebody likes me.

It's not it's.

It doesn't remove a negative that exists.

It's just this thing of like fucking I have like it's, having friends is crazy.

Having friends is like you want to play, and being around a person that you're physically attracted to is another thing.

It's like, this is fucking, I love fucking looking at you.

It feels so good to look.

You want to kiss me?

It's just, I'm not like, why would you want to kiss me?

But I am so glad that you want.

You want to like when I was in school When friends would go.

Sometimes friends would go over to other friends and everyone knows that because they had a note that the moms both moms or parents send or guardians and the school agrees to that you're going on their bus.

So like when, so like, you know, this kid's going on this kid's bus.

So, you know, after school, they're going to go and be friends with each other.

And I was always like, fucking, that's crazy.

All day, you know, he's coming on your bus.

I still have that feeling, and it isn't exclusive to attractive people, but it is.

It does feel it's all very high school.

Yep.

Like, The varsity team or the pretty people or the funny people.

Cool people, rich people, interesting people.

Oh, interesting.

I never thought about rich people, but I can see how that's a thing.

Yeah.

Well, anybody that has anything that other people want.

That's the value thing.

If somebody can make me laugh or like if you're an awesome basketball player.

But that's the how would you say like more shallow, transactional version of that is well, maybe they can invest in my company.

Or maybe, maybe they know somebody that I can hire for this role that I need.

Oh, more shallow.

I was thinking that even that was shallow.

Yeah.

I think, that I think, but isn't that how I think that if, if your motives are undefined to the other person, then that's a bit like but like if you were to say Hey, I'm a huge fan of yours and I want you to love what I do because I think you might, you'd be a great partner for me.

And if it offers value to you, I would love to work with you.

Yeah, that's true.

It's, it's you.

Defining intention.

Yeah, the assumption there is that one person needs to coerce or cajole or convince the other person, and they wouldn't do if they had all of the information.

Right, right, yes.

It's like I want you to invest in my company but you probably don't want to.

But I'm going to fugazi you into thinking and I've got special kind of access and I'm going to do something in this situation that allows me to get that.

I went to school for marketing and theater and in one of my sales classes I learned that I've also grew up.

My parents are in retail and I've been in retail a lot.

But when you try and sell somebody something, you're acting for yourself.

But if you're trying to offer somebody a value, so like, instead of saying hey, I need to sell these phones, but instead I'm trying to overcome an obstacle that you have that this phone would help overcome.

So like finding out somebody else's needs, if you are, if this wouldn't benefit you, then I don't even want to sell this to you, because it's a waste of both of our time and it's manipulative.

But if the other person has so like, don't sell the product, sell the, sell the obstacle that the other person has.

And that's like what you're saying of.

Like you know, you have a lot of money and what's a hundred thousand dollars to you.

Just let me have it.

And then another version of that is that it feels very like Hollywood.

Is this idea of like I'm only talking to you and being friends with you, because maybe you might want to?

Then you see somebody else.

Having a conversation with somebody and then they see somebody else.

I'll say right away I'm not saying that you want to go and talk to somebody else, but if you do, we could end this conversation.

When I'm talking to somebody on their phone.

I don't think that they shouldn't be on their phone, but I'm going to wait.

When I'm with somebody and they go to the bathroom when we're watching something.

I'm going to press pause.

It's all the same shit.

But when I see somebody doing that, there's no way I'm not with you anymore.

I'm not with you.

So just say, Hey, listen, I know this might be rude, but there's like Dwayne Wade is over there.

And as a huge fan, I want to see if I can like kind of getting at a picture.

Come with me, or I'll come back and have this conversation.

I just got to go see Dwayne Wade.

You know, the thought isn't super, the superficial thought is human.

It's the way that you hide it or, or from yourself and, or the other person.

And that's where the practice of calling out the game.

I think it's just, it's not brave.

What's brave is to not look at Dwayne Wade and just pretend that I'm here with you when I'm not.

You know what I mean?

I don't think that's brave.

I think that's cowardly.

It's harder.

I guess instead of saying brave, I'll say it's harder.

Yeah, it is.

It is in some ways you're suppressing something, but it's emotionally maybe easier.

Certain emotions, like if your shame and your codependency uh, and your social awkwardness is stronger than your need to get a photo with this guy that you like, your um, like desire passion, whatever curiosity.

Um, you're like, I'm going to lock in.

I'm going to keep looking and this is going to be okay.

And, uh, don't look at him again.

And then, and then, and then you, but you also, you find your differences to say Hey listen, I don't want to be rude.

I just saw Dwayne is there and I wasn't listening for a second.

I'm back with you, but how fucking cool is that?

Like saying, just acknowledging acknowledging that otherwise i'm here doing it in a classy way.

I think the delivery of this is the devil's in the details of how you actually do this thing, because you can do it in a really clunky way right, and i imagine somebody who what's a clunky way?

If it's honest, clunky way?

Well, still honest, but what's clunky uh?

Well, there are better and worse ways, like the one that you just did there, which is like to.

I've just seen this guy and he's like he's so fucking cool and isn't that sick like should we go over?

I want to go over, do you want to come with me?

Like part of it's the inclusion to sense that you're involving them.

Uh, it's the sort of doing it as a little undercurrent, things like oh, this is us, this is our little secret thing, and like you're in on it.

As opposed, that's such a funny way.

You're right, that's.

That's a funny way of looking at it.

By doing it like this, it's almost as if I'm telling you what I'm thinking, but I'm also including you in my thought, part of it.

Yeah.

You're not excluding.

That's such an interesting way of looking at it of like, yeah, you're including somebody.

Yeah.

I, I think sometimes maybe I I'm saying something that I feel is valuable information, the rules to a game, but I'm doing it for me and not necessarily including the other person.

And maybe that's like what you're saying of like Oh, it messes up the momentum or changes things.

Because anyway, I just an interesting perspective that I hadn't hadn't thought of before.

I think so.

Yeah.

I think that's awesome.

Yeah.

Well, how wonderful to make somebody feel included in this thing obviously, but like yeah, i don't think, i think that's a, i think that's a, a tool that i could sharpen of like, is this including somebody?

This happens when things feel serious to me and um, i don't want to.

Yeah whatever um, i don't have more to say on that.

I just think it's a.

It's a.

I love the way that you articulated thing that I was already doing, but here's maybe why this works versus Hey, I'm doing this now.

Like me not messaging that.

How do I know when to tell the person the thing I'm feeling?

Sometimes you tell this person that's kind of you know.

I do think if I messaged that to her before we ever met, it wouldn't benefit either of us because because um, It could benefit either of us.

But there's a.

There's a better chance of doing it in person, by the eye, where they could.

They could hear my tone instead of assume it like wait a second.

But I like, I felt like a liar by not sending it.

I'm not okay with this.

I'm not okay with moving it to nine or nine 30 or 10.

I could be if she knew who I felt, but like swallow it now.

And I do think, like I didn't know why, even though I agree that I do think, by telling her that I'm not including her and how I'm feeling.

I'm telling her how I'm feeling.

And I do think there's a significant difference, whether it's literally saying you could come with me to Dwayne Wade, or like saying Hey, I want to tell you even just a whispering.

It's like, it's Hey, I want it.

This is just for you.

Yeah.

That's lovely.

Uh, I love that.

There's sometimes something you just realize or something somebody says.

And it's like, oh, I could put that in my bag now.

Where it's just like, when in doubt, ask, is this including this person?

So, yeah, thanks.

That was great.

Dude, that's awesome.

Rick, let's bring it home.

Bro, I've really been looking forward to meeting you.

I actually had a question for you, which was... why well i guess you explained it earlier on that you feel you learned something and sometimes it's interesting even if it's not quite in your wheelhouse i was surprised that you were a fan of the show i didn't think that it was slap bang in the the middle of the the bullseye of what you would be into uh but then actually i i mean i i've had a lot of conversations with people that on the surface i think would have been like oh obviously these like these two people make sense and today's been like so much fucking fun i found it very very cozy actually to be honest and like very intimate sweaters yeah yeah yeah um i don't know you asked me but i have an answer for um watching your stuff one um as a and i don't mean this term derogatory but as a performer like you are a performer i'm not saying you're it's disingenuous but i mean like as somebody who is in front of cameras literally looking straight to the camera and saying stuff you're aware of you're doing this with a purpose for people to consume it right um there are some performers that i feel like i believe you and some i don't and not believing somebody isn't a bad thing like i know robert downey jr isn't iron man but i could still buy into it you know what i mean like that's he's doing a certain type of performance so on one thing i believe you i believe that you want to be saying what you're saying and also by design of what your show is it seems like you're like you're documenting your growth whether it's literally how many subscribers you have or how many people shit before it got into your mouth you were just like you're learning and that's like part of the context of this so i've just connected that because it's like maybe you have something that will benefit me you know like like perspective of inclusion which maybe somebody has said to me before and it just didn't clock at the right time um and then you have guests on that um that are like that have points of view so like the combination of a point of view that i might share i might not share opposite somebody who i believe that since i'm not in the room to call somebody out or to ask a curiosity I believe that the person is there is going to do it the best that person can.

And, um, I just think it's an attractive show.

It isn't.

I mean, it's literally, visually it is too, but like yeah it's it's it's, it's stuff that helps, that doesn't feel like I'm watching a self-help.

Not that there's anything wrong with watching self-help, but it's just people talking about you.

Know what I've noticed?

And like, you did notice it.

You know what I mean?

Like, oh, here's something you actually noticed.

Let me listen.

I think you have a great show, dude.

Thank you.

Yeah.

That's really kind.

I really fucking love yours as well.

I think that the, uh, way that it makes me feel most importantly, it's not what I take away.

It's like the way that it makes me feel.

And like, I don't know why this, the word of the day is cozy.

Maybe it is like jumper vibes and the the the, the um bio, the little little description that you've got of it.

And I wrote that like when I first started.

Yeah.

Like I, uh, I think I'm a boy or I'm a silly boy or something like that's in that.

And, um, yeah, the little illustration that comes across, like, he's a little cute.

He's like poking out behind the side.

Yeah.

To me, it's like, oh fuck.

Like, it feels like I can just, uh, it's like Sunday afternoon shit for me.

And that's like very, very nice.

I, I by design.

Uh, having a studio would benefit for a lot of different logistical reasons, but by design I want to do it in my living room.

I also.

When people come over and they want to have their publicists like people who I don't know who I am and I would love to have them on I say no and nobody else could be in the room.

And it's just, you're in my living room and I want to feel like you're in my living room.

And I do think there's a coziness to it that maybe that's a coincidence that you said it, maybe not, but that is like a tone of the show where maybe I'll be funny, maybe I won't, but as long as we could both be comfortable and like show up as we are now, then like i don't have to worry about was this good or not, that's definitely something that's been a challenge with doing these uh, what we call the cinema shoots, which is what this is, that uh, trying to make it feel like unencumbered natural, like fuck, you know, there's all these cameras and all of this stuff and lighting and it looks fantastic.

But okay, how do we get to the fucking connection bit?

And how do we get out of not necessarily performance mode, because you used the word professional earlier on, which I thought was really good.

It's like turning up when you're nervous or energized or whatever the closest approximation was.

It's like, that's being a professional.

That's being a professional.

I turn up and I do my job.

Even if I fuck I'm too tired or I didn't learn my lines, or this new bit's going to fucking eat shit or whatever it is.

I'm a professional, so I'm going to turn up and do that.

But what you're trying to do with a conversation like this is get to that moment where it's like ah, like we've circled around this fucking drain.

Have you figured out any tricks that you could articulate?

Ooh, a little bit.

The right amount of foreplay before you get in, which was what we did, like no more than 10 minutes.

Dude, that's so funny that you say that because I by design don't want like, because i meet people outside and walk them in and i say you sometimes start filming outside.

No no no, i say uh i, i say this is producer rick.

I don't want to be rude, i don't even want to meet you yet, i want to meet them on camera.

And interesting that you're saying don't over.

So why?

What have you found?

And i know we're wrapping it up, but tell me what have you found by foreplay before camera that benefits you?

It's the same thing with uh going for dinner with the guests the night before.

I'll go with.

I would love to go to dinner with you afterward.

I'd love to go to dinner with you after we record.

Right, i'm not going to dinner with you before, i'm not going to dinner with you the night before.

Yeah, all of the same thing, all of the best shit that we want to talk about.

I know this thing about you and i've watched this thing and i've got the jumper like that's the foreplay before that's.

But so my point is um, dinner is fucking way too much.

You do a little but like uh uh, you come in and we say hey, and we do this.

Even you start to creep out into 15 minutes and there's unless you're in a group, and that helps because other people can do their thing but all of the shit that you want to talk about, you don't have that much to talk about and it's always and it's like below the surface, it's always just like trying to peek up, like just below the surface, and then the second that you get to talk, it starts bursting through and you're like no fuck, like the camera's not on, like shut the fuck up, uh.

So uh, limit the uh foreplay stuff before.

I think is is real good.

Um, a very, at least in my experience.

Uh, because of the style of my show, like a very quick, like snappy first question, although today we just started talking, but if it is a little bit more Huberman-y like, it's about you, the show's about you.

It's not about me.

Sometimes it's about me when it's a solo episode.

Yeah.

But it is, the show is entirely like inverse charisma, a hundred percent.

It's like, I want you to look as good as possible on the show.

Even if it's somebody that I'm going to try and push.

I'm like, I want you to have the longest amount of rope.

And with it, you can start doing like fucking skipping tricks or you can hang yourself with it.

But I'm going to like give it to you as much as possible.

Here's the fucking trampoline or the pedestal.

And from up there, like proselytize about whatever you want.

And you're going to look silly.

You're going to look great.

But I'm going to try and make you look, I'm going to try and get the best version of whatever your argument is.

Bernie Sanders on the show in New York last week fucking.

Who was supposed to have Kamala Harris today.

That didn't come off.

But I was also on Tucker's show, and I'm like, I guess I was a guest.

But, you know, I've had, whatever, Ben Shapiro.

So, like, no matter who it is, I'm like, okay, I really want to fucking get to what you mean.

Like, I really want to work out what you mean.

And I'm not going to, I'm not good at being cantankerous and, like, sort of backbiting, flaming.

Now I know what cantankerous means, but for the people at home that don't disagreeable, like purposefully, like brusque and like spiky, like i'm not good at that um anyway, so quick.

First question it's like hey, away you go, this is about you.

I'm gonna get the fuck out the way like nice easy lowball.

First question uh huberman, like um, asking him about.

Uh, he's doing a lot of stuff about cortisol.

So I think the first question was like, most people think that cortisol is a bad thing.

Is that true?

It's like, absolutely not.

There you go.

Uh, those that helps um deepening the connection is sometimes difficult because you you can't force it, as you've identified today.

You can't force connection.

You're like, ah, am I here with this person?

One thing I have noticed, and I learned this term yesterday, which I think he might fucking love.

Joe Hudson taught me, uh, vagal authority.

So what he's referring to?

In any interaction or in any room, one person's nervous system is dictating everybody else's.

So somebody is in a conversation group or one-on-one and they get all excited.

And do you get excited too?

Does your nervous system... Well, by design, aren't you saying that it would, that you would...

You're saying that somebody's nervous system is affecting other people's.

They are, but there's vagal authority, which is whose nervous system is dictating.

Oh, it's the alpha of the, I didn't think about that.

He's doing it in a much more embodied way but yeah, kind of it's like who's who is the alpha from a vagal perspective.

Uh, somebody gets all excited.

Do you stay calm?

And do they come back down?

Somebody gets all excited.

And do you go meet them?

That's just co-regulation, right?

It is, but it seems to be, at least in um joe's language it was.

One person tends to own that more.

And now, what i didn't ask him i should have done, what i love is when you're you have uh, sufficiently low, sufficiently high humility or low ego where you can go okay, this is your turn to have the vagal authority.

Uh, so there was a moment where we got silly and there's a moment where you get to be excited, but then Uh, sometimes you don't have that.

You're not on the same frequency quite so much and you're a little bit more here and then you need to be at least I found a bit more blunt.

Yeah.

You said, let me get back to the thing.

Yeah.

A bit more blunt with your vagal authority, but even not doing it verbally, even just being like, I've done it in episodes where I've, I've been able to tell that somebody's nervous.

And instead of me sort of matching that speed of being really quick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick, tick.

I've been like taking a purposeful, like, um, three second break.

They've finished talking or they've asked me a question.

I'm like, Hmm.

I would think if somebody was nervous and the person opposite them stopped talking and just went Hmm, that would make them like more nervous.

If they ask a question, if it's a statement, that's a bad idea.

If it's a question, it's good.

So if they say you're taking in their question and I'm going Reverse Riz or whatever you called it,

Reverse Riz, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what's interesting?

I've never been asked that question before.

It's almost like you're giving that, right?

Exactly.

Like, you're an unbelievable question asker.

Allow me to give what you've just said so much respect that I'm genuinely going to consider it.

And also, take a fucking second to chill your nervous system out, dude.

Because like, you're a little bit up here and we can Yeah, you know that sounds better than what i would do is probably.

You seem nervous, is there?

Yeah yes yes yes, yes.

So this is you breaking the rules of the game, or calling them out, and me trying to play within them.

I'm like how and mine is one could work when the other doesn't, and vice versa?

I think so.

Rick glassman, ladies and gentlemen dude, you're awesome.

I appreciate the fuck out of you.

Thanks man, this is cool.

Thanks for having me.

What a big podcast that you included me on with all your fun like Star guests.

Yeah.

Where should people go?

They want to check out everything that you're doing.

Are you on tour?

Are you doing tour?

Yes.

And I have to set up all the new dates.

I only have a few more cities left.

I'm in Vegas, Cleveland, and Phoenix.

Punchup.live slash Rick Glassman.

You can sign up for my email list.

The only time I email you is if I'm coming within 50 miles of your city.

I'm setting up my tour for next year now.

And my podcast is called Take Your Shoes Off.

If there's anything that I tell people that i'm the most proud of to watch, it's uh, it's that.

What episodes should people start with?

Um well, i don't know if this is the best starting episode, but my favorite episodes of recent are um, i guess a good starting episode maybe be david cornersweat, who plays superman.

Uh, that's fun because it has a lot of the silliness, but it's also very connected in what we talk about.

Um, but right now, my uh.

I've had Paul Rudd on twice.

Paul Rudd 10 and 20 are probably my favorite, because I I didn't know him before the podcast and it ended up becoming something that I almost didn't post.

Uh, cause, um, in the second Paul Rudd one, something happened and I asked him to let me post it.

Um, but yeah, it's wild.

It's weird.

Um, but that's probably what I would recommend people watching.

I think that doing it in the living room is definitely creating a sense of uh, disarming in that way that allows people to sort of drop in and that connection.

And it's called take your shoes off.

Um, and almost everybody who I've never met.

Um, even if they're not a comedian, they take their shoes off with it or they come in and they give me a little bit of a jab.

I've noticed this recently.

I'd like, Oh, this isn't like, Oh, you want me to take your shoes off down here?

Like, what are you afraid?

I'm going to get mud all over the place.

Whatever it is, nothing mean they acknowledge that I had to take their shoes.

They have to take their shoes off and it's my fault. you know, and they like call me.

And I also, I was thinking about this recently where like, oh, they're comfortable right away because I'm saying I'm, I'm showing a weakness of mine and asking for their help.

Will you take your shoe?

I used to make people wash their hands when they can't come in.

Like before I got a dog, I mean, there was no unprotected sex.

Right.

But anyway, I'm lingering.

I'm having fun.

But yeah, people come in to have to take their shoes off.

They see that I am Because I make a lot of jokes and like I could be a bit aggressive, but they see me right away as saying hey, I need your help with something.

I have OCD where you sit on this thing and take your shoes off and they feel like oh okay, I can maybe now show him my things, which was an accident that I think.

Like a lot of times when people have OCD, they'll let you know right away at the beginning of an episode and they'll tell me their things because they saw mine.

Does that make sense?

That's awesome.

All right.

I'm lingering.

I'm having fun.

The caffeine's still in.

Thanks for having me.

Appreciate you.

If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list.

It is 100 books that you should read before you die.

The most interesting, life-changing and impactful books I've ever read, with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them.

And you can get it right now for free by going to chriswillx.com slash books.

That's chriswillx.com.

Slash books.

[The Art of Vulnerability, Boundaries, and Authentic Connection]-[#1060 - Rick Glassman - The Case Against Condoms & Fake Friendship]

📋 Summary

Navigating Social Boundaries and Authenticity

The "House Condom" Analogy for Boundaries

Self-Deception and the People-Pleasing Trap

The Balance Board of Growth and Self-Love

Finding Frequency and Embracing Uniqueness

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[The Art of Vulnerability, Boundaries, and Authentic Connection]-[#1060 - Rick Glassman - The Case Against Condoms & Fake Friendship]

📋 Summary

Navigating Social Boundaries and Authenticity

The "House Condom" Analogy for Boundaries

Self-Deception and the People-Pleasing Trap

The Balance Board of Growth and Self-Love

Finding Frequency and Embracing Uniqueness

Deep Learning with ListenLeap

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

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