You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Feifei, together with Steve Heatherly and Niu Honglin.
Coming up, in 2025, Chinese employees on average worked 49 hours a week.
We have a law.
We have awareness existing.
The white seems nothing really is changing.
And today we ask who actually benefits from long working hours and what would it take to stop it?
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Now, it's one of those rare issues where there's almost no disagreement.
Ask a CEO, a factory worker or a policymaker directly.
They'll probably all say the same thing.
Excessive overtime at work is a problem.
It's bad for health.
It's bad for productivity and also bad for families.
Then why does it feel impossible to stop?
We have our labor law.
We have new generations marking loyalty through suffering.
Yet in 2025, we have new stats suggesting that, on average, Chinese workers still clocked nearly 50 hours a week, nearly an extra full working day, week after week.
Then why is it this culture seems so stubborn?
Is it because of the economy? the competition?
Or is there something deeper about how we define worth?
Hello, Hong Ling and Steve.
So how serious is... I thought she was just saying like...
Hello, Ong Lin.
What's the problem here?
Like, blaming you.
I don't think I work overtime.
You don't?
Well, let's be fair.
You said 49 hours a week.
It was not 49.
It was 48.6.
It was 48.6 hours.
Very precise.
Yes.
The idea is that we see a new stat showing the average weekly working time for employees in enterprises was 485 in 2025.
And when it comes to the law the regulation we talked about we are talking about China's labor law.
The labor law was passed as early as 1994.
Article 36 specifically said that the state implements a working-hour system wherein workers shall work no more than eight hours a day and no more than an average of 44 hours a week.
That means if you have five working days and eight hours a day, you get to work four hours more than what you should, as you are working overtime period.
But that's on average.
So if someone worked an entire day on a Saturday and later on they got an extra day, That's okay.
Yeah, but this is an issue.
And maybe this will kind of drive that point home.
There was a 2025 report.
It was released by a recruitment portal called Xiaoping.
38.7%, almost 39%, almost 40% of workers work overtime almost every single day.
And that's really noteworthy, because the continuous upgrading of technology, beyond just working overtime at the office or at a factory or wherever it is that that overtime is being worked.
This is what they call invisible overtime, and it's gradually eating away at workers' personal lives and the time that they have for themselves.
So the work line and the personal life line is now really, really blurring, and digital tools are allowing work to interrupt your home life.
So when we talk about invisible work. invisible over time.
Are we talking about the replying of a message from your boss?
Could be part of it.
And thinking about how to reply that message.
Replying it takes two seconds.
Thinking about it takes one hour.
And how do I define how much time I overworked?
Yeah, that's part of it.
You might get an email notification on your phone that could pop up and you open up that email and you have to reply to that or anything really any of the extra stuff that you're doing that is work related outside of the four walls of your office.
That's invisible over time.
And that is not even only here in China.
We see global labor averages hovered around 387 hours per week in 2025, which seemed quite nice.
You see, developed countries tend to work fewer hours, while many developing countries record long work weeks.
We see, for example, in Netherlands, the time is only 268 hours when I move there, 296 hours in Germany, 31 hours in UK and Japan.
And when it comes to Jordan, it's 47.8 hours and 50.8 hours in Sudan and 54.5 hours in Bhutan.
That's a long working hour week.
Yeah.
And I'm wondering does that you know if we're looking down the breakdown of these numbers?
Do we have like stats from, for example, when it comes to the age of these workers who are working overtime?
Or do we having see like different industries?
Maybe.
For example, I heard a lot of people working in finance industry complaining that they need to work a lot longer hours than they're supposed to be.
Simply, for example, for someone working in Europe.
They still need to keep an eye on what's happening in the States.
And that's the overtime that they need to work on.
So when it comes to working overtime, I think we kind of agreed already on there will be some bad consequences after you worked extra extra, longer hours.
Yeah, it's not good for you.
And you're right.
I mean, it depends on the industry, right?
I think tech is famous for asking people to work longer than perhaps what their contract might say.
And there have been some famous CEOs that have come out and said if you're not willing to give everything to this job, then don't bother applying for it, and that got a lot of backlash on on the internet, fairly or or or unfairly um, you know, but you don't see school teachers, for example um, spending 16 hours a day, every single day, at the office.
It just depends.
Not saying school teachers aren't tired and exhausted.
I'm just saying that it depends on the industry where you'll find different hours.
Medical workers.
And when it comes to school teachers, it depends on which grades they teach.
Why?
Because sometimes.
For students in, for example, senior high schools.
Not only will you still teach the classes during daytime, you would still have to also grade the papers and homework and answer questions.
And that can go late into the night too.
Ask you a question through WeChat.
I don't think teachers would just ignore it.
It's different from receiving a text from a supervisor.
No students are texting their teachers asking school-related... Parents!
Parents, yes.
But you're right, Feifei, I think you said it's not good for you, right?
The World Health Organization and the International Labor Organization.
I don't think we'll find these statistics surprising.
They found that long working hours are really, really bad for our health.
So if you work over 55 hours per week, that increases the risk of stroke.
By 35%.
It increases heart disease death by 17%.
And about 745,000 people die each year globally due to long working hours.
Why?
This is my real question.
Why do we romanticize or praise almost people who say that they're the first one in the office in the morning, they're the last one to go home at night?
We always look at, and this is not cultural.
This is true in America and Canada too.
We always look at those people and go That's worker of the year.
Yeah, you're just amazing.
Why do we do that?
Well, I just told you.
The risk of stroke increases by 35% if you work more than 55 hours a week.
That tells me... Stop...
Doing that.
But I think in traditional perception that means you're dedicated to your work.
And which employer is going to say no?
I'm dedicated.
I'm dedicated to not having a stroke.
And also by design.
Humans are not supposed to be under stress all the time.
In ancient days, no matter if you're out harvesting by saying harvesting i mean getting some apples from a tree that you didn't grow you get the food, but while you're harvesting you need to watch out for danger out there and also while you're hunting, you need to make sure that you're in your best state.
You're running really fast, you're very vigilant and you get the animal that you want to eat later.
But besides those times when you're in the cave, when you're happy, when you're relaxing, you're supposed to be stress free, which is why some people say We are designed to have really hard working period in the day and also relaxing days.
But when we are on call all the time, when You're thinking about work and replying messages about work all the time,
You're under stress all the time, which explains why working overtime would lead to all the physical and mental problems.
Is that also the reason that in recent years, we're seeing a lot of younger people, I would say, in particular, pushing back the idea that I need to work overtime in the office so that my boss is convinced I'm a good worker?
Like what my father would suggest, that's the things you should do in your workplace.
Yeah, it's a common belief.
Is it true?
Do you think that's true?
That to get ahead in your career, regardless of...
Industry, actually.
Regardless of industry, to get ahead, you need to work overtime.
You need to stay in the building longer than other people.
I don't think that is the general perception among the younger generation anymore.
It used to be.
It might still be for the relatively older generation, for my generation and above.
Still, there are many people believe in putting in and working harder would give you better results.
But more and more.
I think it's a better perception among the younger generation, that is, they realize that while they're staying in the office they are not that dedicated.
They're not focused on the job.
Bingo.
When i go to the gym, i see people who are sitting at the machine that they are supposed to be using, playing with their cell phone, a smartphone game, or scrolling in pictures or watching videos, and they're not exercising.
So if that person stays at the gym for an hour And they haven't really done anything.
Well, then what's the point?
So my response to this is exactly what you just said.
Just because you're in the building doesn't mean you're working.
Right.
But people seem to put those two together that, oh, I'm here.
But that's not the case.
So I would rather see shorter working hours.
But while you're actually at your job, do your job.
Well, that's fair.
That's fair.
But that's the tricky part to this question is that I actually listened to a podcast a few days ago is from a scholar, a well-accomplished scholar.
And he said.
If you really want to stay ahead in your game, in your career, in his case, in your research area, working overtime is inevitable.
You need to be devoted to the research program you are in.
And that means you probably need to work more than eight hours during the day.
And that's he said that he's secret.
And since we are aware of the health risks, as Steve mentioned, when it comes to working long hours in the office and there are also people pushing back the idea of you know working overtime equals devotion at your work.
Then why are we still saying in China we have more than 48 hours per week phenomena in the workplace anyway.
Well, one thing definitely would be peer pressure.
We don't see this phenomenon that often here in China anymore.
That is, if your supervisor is not leaving, you are not leaving.
It's not that common for the younger generation anymore, but it has been there.
Same in Korea, by the way.
It has been there for quite a long time.
It's not the same. like this in our office to start with, for sure.
But it definitely still exists in some areas.
And another thing is that I think it depends on each and every individual.
Because when we do the research about how many hours do you think you're overworking or how many hours do you think you actually are doing things related to work every week, people would have different definition.
They would have different understanding about work related.
If I reply my message within just two seconds, but I think about it for an hour while doing other things, doing family tour, taking my kids to the park.
Should I count that one hour in or not?
So I think.
It also is something that is not easy to define.
Same thing goes to the other direction.
That is, if you're on call 24-7, if you're on call even during public holidays.
That pressure on each and every individual feels different.
And that would cause different problems and different mental issue, physical issue for different people.
I believe Fei-Fei, the example you mentioned, this researcher, when he said you have to be 100 in to be successful in the industry, he meant it and he's doing it and he believes in it.
But that is not the case for everybody.
So you were saying that from?
For the scholar example that I gave out, it goes from a simply very devoted worker to a social phenomena, really in the modern times, that they start creating a bigger problem at scale.
It's not about Having a worker of the year who are willing to work 60 hours per week so that he or she can stay ahead of the game is creating problems that, like Hongling mentioned, suggested that Some people are just simply stressed out being on call 24-7.
I sense that technology played a part in it.
About the... Staying online all the time.
Yeah, and that's why we're seeing the right to disconnect became a thing in Australia.
I forget the time of the day, but it might be 6 or 7 p.m.
After that, you are not legally required to reply to a message that you get or an email that you get.
That's work-related.
And we mentioned in the very beginning that we have articles in the labor law protecting the right to not work overtime too much.
But when it comes to practice you will have to be that firm to sue your company to get the compensation.
Yeah, and you can have...
Anything you want written down on paper, you could write down on paper.
Everybody gets 40 gold coins at the end of the day if it doesn't happen.
It can happen and it happens a lot.
And we see news stories about this employee sue their company for having them working overtime.
And he or she showed the WeChat account.
I think it's the WeChat record of the conversation and they won.
But you will have to sue your company to won.
And that also comes with the consequences.
You probably won't be able to working in that company anymore.
Yeah, it's very rare to sue your company and go to work on Monday.
That's what I'm talking about.
And that is also why I find this particular suggestion very interesting.
That is, people are calling for new legal frameworks that recognize the realities of the digital age, in the sense that the digital evidence, like nighttime electricity usage of the company building or the online timestamps they should be also used in labor disputes to prove that invisible overtime actually happened.
But I think you know, when it comes to the Australia example, that Steve gave out that legally you are not required to reply to any work-related messages after a certain period of time.
Unless it's an emergency.
There are stipulations to that.
It's not like full stop.
But what if somebody is just willing to respond to that work message and they are promoted before you.
Yeah.
And this is why thank you for leading me to my main point.
We cannot blame employees for this because people are ambitious.
And one of the ways to get ahead of your co-workers is to stay at the office later than them, because it shows, like you said Faye, Faye.
Willingness.
It shows something.
I don't know what, but it shows something.
But that's not fair, because some people have kids and some people have other responsibilities that requires them to get out of the office at certain times of day when your day is finished.
Don't blame the employees at all for staying late, even if they don't want to, if they think it's giving them a heads up.
That's why I think.
These changes need to come from the top down and therefore the employees don't have a choice.
So the CEO of the company or whoever is in charge of the office, at 7 pm or whenever your day finishes, the lights in the office go off and everybody go home now.
And if you can't finish your work within that day, start it, pick it up again tomorrow.
It's industry sensitive, I know, but I'm just speaking in general here.
And I think you'll find that if people said like oh, I couldn't finish my work, I bet the next day or the next day they would.
Because you just work on this stuff more than taking, you know... few extra breaks during the day.
I think that's how we start to fix this problem.
I'm curious, because many companies started to evaluate their employees not by how much time they work every day, but by the quote, unquote results, or the KPI, or how much you deliver.
But do you think it's essentially the same?
Because for some people, they need to work harder and longer hours to get better results.
So instead of on top of having a labor law, for instance, have a legal framework to constrain what companies can do.
And you two are sort of proposing we need a value system reshape on some level, that maybe efficiency shouldn't be on the top of their list for enterprises.
No, efficiency is definitely on the top.
I think what I'm thinking is that it's a majority versus minority thing.
If the majority of people are very firmly opposed to the idea of working overtime, we'll see only those who are really, really enjoying working would stay in the office for longer hours.
Whereas if the majority of people are thinking about I should stay as long as my boss is here, no matter what kind of quote-unquote legal framework we're working under, people can always say I am quote-unquote willing to do this.
Yeah and, to be fair, maybe that's what it takes if you are going to be in a position of running the company, or at least being in a High up managerial executive position, because maybe that's what it takes for that company to function extremely well in a competitive market.
So in a vacuum, it's easy for me to say oh, the lights go off at seven o'clock and everybody leaves the building, whether you like it or not.
But the reality is not that.
And also at least here in the Chinese society and many, many countries out there.
If you do want to protect your rights with legal tools, you have them.
They're right there.
Just keep in mind for I think, a lot of individual workers out there.
You have the right to disconnect.
You are not obliged to reply to every messages that your company sending out.
And just remember keeping a paper trail of these kind of efforts out there.
And so over time, I think what we discussed is not just about you know longer hours in your offices.
And it's also about how we value success, for example, how an enterprise will put their worth at, and how we value ourselves.
Are we afraid of getting left behind or are we willing to be staying head on throughout different ways?
And I would say these kind of values are not fixed.
I'm sensing that they are changing in many, many smaller options, in a lot of quieter pushbacks, maybe through a smaller lawsuit against a certain company by one individual worker out there, or maybe there are new expectations putting on companies and individuals in the market.
So maybe the future of work won't be decided by one big policy or one big law, but by millions of people who decide to do these smaller choices, these quiet pushbacks, and then we'll probably see something different coming out of it.
You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Fei Fei.
And that brings us to the end of today's show.
And thank you, Hongling and Steve, for joining the show.
And thank you for tuning in.
You can find us on your podcast platform by searching Roundtable China.
I'm Fei Fei, and I'll see you next time.
