Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable. Hello everybody, welcome to Roundtable.
Coming to you from Beijing, I'm He Yang.
Good to have you join us on a day's show.
Another Chinese company has just hopped aboard the hybrid work train, while many international counterparts have already made it their default mode.
As we reflect on our collective experience with the global hybrid work experiment, what have we learned about its benefits, challenges, and occasional awkward moments?
Why have some countries wholeheartedly embraced this work mode while others have been more reluctant?
And picture this, you're in China where tipping isn't customary, then you fly to New York where even the pigeons expect a tip, and finally land in London where tipping is a bit of a guessing game.
How do you adjust your mindset and wallet to these cultural norms?
For this program, I'm joined by Steve Hatherly in the studio and Josh Cotterrell on the line, first on a day's show.
In the post-pandemic world, many companies around the world have maintained their hybrid work models, blending remote and office-based approaches.
While hybrid work has become commonplace in many countries, it remains the exception rather than the role in China.
Recently, Chunar, a travel booking tech company, announced that from July 15, employees can choose their working location on Wednesdays and Fridays.
This follows similar moves by other Chinese firms.
Ctrip.com implemented a hybrid system in March 2022, while LeTV introduced flexible half-day work on Wednesdays in January 2023.
So Steve, how effective is hybrid work in these companies?
I think you'd have to look company by company basis to find out how effective it is.
But if we talk about the company that you mentioned, Chunar, they've been experimenting with this for a period of about nine months, and according to all the reports that have come out, it seems that since the start of the experiment, there's been at least one really positive effect, and that's the turnover rate for the company.
The employees who have not left the company versus who have stayed at the company, that is decreased by 30%.
So that's obviously a success story there.
Yeah, well, if your company does value keeping talent or keeping your people with your company, then this is a major plus.
It is a major plus. I mean, these types of statistics you have to take with a grain of salt, because it's relative, right?
30% could mean 30 people, or it could mean one person.
If two people quit out of three, or one person stayed, then those numbers can be a little bit relative.
But anyway, still a success story nonetheless.
Overall, the feedback has been pretty positive.
The turnover rate lower, we talked about that.
Employee productivity, it has not declined, and also satisfaction has increased as well.
Talking about Ctrip.com, that group, they did a six month trial as well, and they wanted to find out the impact of hybrid home working on the employees' performance, their retention, and also their job satisfaction.
And when those results came in, it showed that in the hybrid working groups, the employee turnover rate decreased by a third.
Job satisfaction scores had increased as well.
So it seems like it's a win-win for everybody here.
And these two examples that Steve Yew just provided, these are well-known Chinese companies in this country, and they're pretty big as well.
But these are kind of the most high-profile examples, and you don't see every company, or many companies, and organizations do this.
Josh, you're from the UK, and you've done some research on how hybrid work, or the four-day work week, has been implemented in your country.
So what's the results over there?
Yeah, well, actually, in the UK, we have the world's largest four-day work week trial, which compromised of 61 companies and around 3,000 workers, and that took place in the UK from June to December of 2022.
So much like what was just mentioned, we have to take this with a grain of salt, and although this is the largest trial ever in the world, it's still only 3,000 workers, right?
So we have to consider maybe how much to take away from this, but the results were a resounding success, actually.
Of the 61 companies that participated, 56 of them decided to continue with the four-day work week.
That's 92%, with 18 confirming that the policy would be a permanent change.
And some of the benefits, and I will come to some of the cons, but it's difficult to find some from this trial, to be honest with you, because it was such a success, but some of the benefits were that employees reported less stress, 39%, 71% had reduced levels of burnout, employees also found it easier to balance their work and family.
And then, of course, a consequence of this is that they retain the talent.
The employees are much happier, less employees leave, and actually, companies' revenue broadly stayed the same.
So, yeah, so it was a resounding success, actually.
Of course, some of the negatives, the biggest negative for me is not really a negative directly as a result from that was found there, but of course, that it is such a small amount of people and small amount of employees.
And there are some industries that we know that just maybe wouldn't work in this regard.
It doesn't suit all industries.
Some sectors require a seven-day work week presence, even.
And even in this kind of work, right, in media, for example, sometimes you have to, if there's a big event going on and you can't always foresee if that's going to happen, you might not be able to stay working four days a week.
So, there's definitely some cons to it.
Yeah. Well, the last couple of words you said there reminds me of a sort of a joke or some kind of saying back in the day saying that only the drug lords and surgeons need to be on call.
24-7. 24-7. Seven days a week and plus media professionals.
I remember when I signed up to this company, one first thing they told me was, hey, Heoyang, you'll never be able to turn off your smartphone.
Okay, that's just not what you do because you're in this profession.
Referencing C-Trip one more time, you know, the company management, their view of hybrid working has also improved because I think when we think about, and I'm not sure, maybe we can debate this a little bit, but for me, when I think about hybrid working, I think, well, automatically the positives from the employee side, right?
There's more flexibility in your schedule, which allows you to take care of your own personal life better than if you were in the office all day, perhaps.
But if we think about it from a company's point of view, maybe they would have more concerns, right?
Because the fact that their employees aren't in the office all the time, so it's difficult to keep tabs on them.
But C-Trip, again, they evaluated for a period of nine months, and they were looking at performance evaluation metrics, including reviews and promotion outcomes for their employees.
And what they found, this was really interesting to me, absolutely no difference between the groups.
So this obviously doesn't have any sort of impact on employee performance.
It doesn't have any sort of impact on their future career opportunities within the company if we look at C-Trip as kind of an epitree dish, if you will.
Yeah, and both Chunar and C-Trip, these are two companies that are travel booking companies.
At least that was the initial business that brought in revenue for them.
And also both are tech-related companies.
They're booking platforms.
So I suppose, you know, what kind of business, what kind of company are you?
Kind of matters here? Absolutely.
I mean, if you're running a manufacturing company, and your employees are building things, then working from home is almost impossible, isn't it?
So these are both travel companies.
This type of industry allows for their employees to have success outside of the office too.
Yes, and who is more welcoming of the hybrid work model, and what are their reasons?
According to the results, the proportion of women and young people was higher.
C-Trip, again, to reference them as an example, they began fully implementing their hybrid working in March of this year.
So it's only been a few months for them.
And the results were 70% of the employees have experienced this convenience of hybrid working.
Among them, the proportion of female applicants is slightly higher, and young people they found too.
Maybe this isn't so surprising.
They prefer hybrid working with 90s and 2000s kids that generation, accounting for nearly 80%.
All right. Well, I want to say something for women, because it's really, I suppose it might be easy to jump to conclusions.
Oh, the women want to have more flexible hours.
Well, mainly it's not like she's, you know, going to a yoga class or, I don't know, getting her nails done.
Of course, it's fabulous if you can get that done within that timeframe.
But it's mainly that it's those who are looking after kids and taking care of family.
And these are the employees that report the highest satisfaction rate thanks to flexible work.
Absolutely. And referencing young people, it's now kind of one of the conditions that they're looking for when they're choosing where they want to work.
At the end of 2021, there was a survey report put out by Deloitte, and it showed that 40% of Gen Z respondents, they considered flexibility and adaptability as their top priorities when they were looking for a job.
And then on top of that, over 60% of Gen Z respondents said that their companies had already implemented policies supporting flexible working and arrangements.
I mean, I think when we look at what happened during the pandemic, when everybody was forced to work at home, in the beginning, people thought, oh, wow, this is amazing.
And then they thought maybe after a few months or a year of doing that, they thought, perhaps this isn't as amazing as I thought it was.
Maybe we should go back to the office.
Oh, wait, I forgot that I don't really like going to the office five days a week or more.
Let's find a happy medium, and that seems to be striking a chord with young people.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that also alludes to another issue with the hybrid work model.
One of the problems is that the blurring of the line between work life and home life, something that I myself have found in China is definitely more apparent than in my own country in the UK working here when it comes to work life and home life and working hours.
And, you know, being maybe emailed once you get off work and things like this.
But I think that the hybrid work model arguably further blurs this, which can be quite uncomfortable, I think, for many people.
I myself, I don't know if I'm with the majority here at all, but I quite like to know my work life and home life boundaries.
I like to know when I'm off work and when I should be contacted and when I should be working really hard.
And I think that without clear boundaries between the office time and personal time, employees can feel a bit of pressure to always be available, right?
And to maybe habitually start to work overtime even depending on the company that you have.
So I don't think that it's always going to work out perfectly.
I totally agree with what you said there because there's kind of a lack of a definition for the employee to about when exactly they should be working.
I had the opportunity to work at home remotely for a little while.
And when I was just doing something in the house like, I don't know, surfing the internet or cooking something, I almost felt guilty.
Like, oh, I should be, should I be working right now?
Or like, can I take a break?
Is that okay? I think the lines get blurred, Josh, to what you were referencing about the clearly defined role for yourself.
You know, when you go in the office, your brain is set.
I'm ready to work. I'm here to work.
When I walk out of that building, then it's me time.
But I think your brain might get confused a little bit when you're going back and forth on particular days of the week.
And that could leak into productivity problems that could leak into motivational problems as well.
So it's not all sunshine for hybrid working.
Oh, that's for sure. And also, Josh, what you alluded to, you know, being almost like 24 hours on clock on call, especially for those who work in the service industry.
Also, you know, for, let's say, our line of work or any profession where your coworker, your boss can just easily reach you on WeChat.
Because you don't have the excuse of saying, oh, I didn't receive that email or I didn't look at my email.
I didn't check at the time.
But now everybody assumes that you are always checking your WeChat.
And in the after hours, when you get a work WeChat, sometimes people need to sort of take a moment and decide whether they want to reply or not.
But in China, the default is most people just reply anyway.
And then you're thinking about work after work for sure.
What I was just about to say next is that you can't really, you know, that expression to take your work home with you.
You can't not not take your work home with you.
If I said that correctly, that emotionally is a little confusing too.
So like I said, there are definite advantages.
I mean, we could list down the advantages.
They're obvious, right?
Commuting time is saved.
Oh, yes. Please say more about that.
Well, I think that's one of the obvious ones, right?
Commuting time, you don't have to get into your car or the bus or the subway and spend the hours of your day headed to work and then back home again in the evening.
Not having to get dressed up, perhaps might be an advantage as well.
Time spent, you know, doing your hair in the morning or choosing your clothes, something like that.
There's a lot. And actually, that's something maybe it's just me in a fashion, but I think that's a really great part about getting out of the house and going to work.
Because also, I know I'm shoring up a huge part of the economy because when you're buying clothes, you know, and all this getting ready for work stuff, it's all consumption.
And also, like you guys mentioned earlier, like when you're getting ready for work and getting dressed and putting on the nice shoes, the nice outfit and all that, getting the hair and makeup done.
Well, if you can choose that.
And then basically that process kind of mentally gets you ready.
Okay, I'm going to go to work and I am going to be an efficient and productive contributing member of society today.
Yeah, but that commuting time is a big, but I don't like that.
It's a big deal, isn't it?
You know, there was a there was a report from by do maps from I think the third quarter of 2023 Beijing travel time.
It's the numbers are a little bit different according to which outlet you look, look to, but it's on average 45 minutes commute to work.
And then if you double that, then that's an hour and a half spent just on transportation alone in one particular day.
That math adds up over the course of 365 days in a year.
So, you know, talking about perhaps productivity, maybe weaknesses in working from home.
Well, at least you'll have more time to accomplish your tasks.
Oh, yes. And also talk about, you know, reduce traffic congestion.
Yes. Right. And also all the pollution that comes from cars, from the traveling of and commuting every day.
This is, I think, a pretty obvious benefit for not only the individuals, but also for society and the environment.
In China, do you think, I mean, we've seen, you know, Josh was giving the example of the four day work week seems to have been a great success in their trials.
Do you see this becoming a thing either hybrid work or four day work week?
Do you see that becoming a thing in China?
Sadly, not so much. Yes, despite workers clearly are in favor of a hybrid work model and getting more freedom in deciding your work day.
But in general, in China, this is still pretty rare.
I know for international companies that has a China office and operations here, then usually the company rule will be that of a hybrid work, if that's what they do in their headquarters.
Here in China, though, I think in the last two years, we've just gradually all shifted back into the office.
And some people say that this might have something to do with our work culture.
And it's very much about being present.
And I think there is perhaps a lack of trust from the management and the company.
They just feel that you have to sort of be under their radar to make sure that you're working.
Yeah, I mean, they've done that in Korea, too, that where, you know, after the pandemic was over, Kakao, for example, it's like the WeChat of Korea.
They have what they call an office first policy where they prefer their employees to be in the office, but they've also said that they'll leave it up to the department, each department within their company to make decisions.
But a lot of tech companies, I think, have made the decision to bring their employees back into the office.
And I think the reason that they cite the most is on site collaboration.
It's just more productive to have creative minds in the office looking at each other in the face when they're having their meetings.
Well, I think this will take a long time to be implemented properly.
And we have to remember the five day work week, the 40 hour work week is a human construct.
And it's not been around for, I mean, it's all relative, right?
But it's probably been around since like industrialization, the end of the 19th century.
I think Henry Ford was the first person to officially implement the 40 hour work week.
And so for generations now, we've had this in our mind.
And I guess that it will take some time for society to accept this.
And I imagine that if it can be successful in the United Kingdom, it could also be successful in China.
It's just a question of whether or not enough companies are going to pursue this new model and trial it and then whether it's going to become like law.
And that takes quite a long time to be implemented, right?
Whether it becomes statute to whatever degree.
And because I think that if enough companies start doing this, then of course, talent is going to be more attracted to those particular companies.
And then through the nature of competition and trying to attract said talent, more companies are going to start offering that.
Because why would you go to a company that has a five day work week when you can work at this company for the same salary?
Well, you only have to be in the office four days a week.
And remember, with a hybrid model.
And remember, we just learned that young people now are looking for that flexibility in their work schedule.
So who knows, maybe there will be a change in the future where young people are saying, no, we're not going to work five days anymore.
And companies will be forced to make that change because companies need employees, don't they?
But see, that's the thing that I struggle to wrap my head around in China because we haven't seen the kind of all companies joining in or this becomes sort of the main tune.
All companies are singing and the lack of that momentum has meant, well, you know, here we're often talking about it and, you know, sort of looking at certain companies in envious eyes that, oh, they can do that.
And so I think here it's interesting that some of this arrangement is so deeply rooted in the existing culture and business model.
And also, like, just look at in the US when you mentioned that now with a lot of companies, well, actually, they are a little bit split in the opinions in the sense that some companies have reflected and say that remote work or this flexibility isn't all that good because companies are also facing the challenges of how do you gauge productivity.
And then how do you manage people when maybe you don't see them at all?
You know, that's a big issue and you've even got people like Elon Musk.
I don't know how representative he is of managers, but saying that, you know, he's requiring employees to come back to the office and contribute 40 hours a week.
So, you know, you've got that.
There are decades and decades of precedent that has been set for success of having employees in the office five to six days a week.
There hasn't been any precedent set yet for hybrid work to show that companies can be successful over the long term.
This is a problem for the management because they can't look at the previous decades to make sure that their sales figures are still increasing or their productivity from employees is still solid.
So this is brand new. So that's why these companies are testing for six months at a time.
And I don't know. I think even probably in the UK, Canada, US, Western countries, I still think it's going to be years and years before this takes full effect if it ever takes full effect.
But also I want to check with you guys from the point of view of the manager, if you can, you know, just temporarily get into their shoes for a second or whatnot.
Is it difficult to give up the reins on, you know, having everybody in the office?
This is only my personal observation.
But in China, it feels like those one level up there in the hierarchy, they they're just afraid to let everybody go loose because they're like, oh, you know, what is that going to do to productivity?
And, you know, you might not be able to reach everybody all the time.
Oh, and that person went for a haircut when it's during office hours.
What? So just to keep everything in order and make sure that everybody, every piece falls in the right place.
And then let's just stick with what's been the rule all this time.
I've said for for many, many years now, and I've felt this as an employee.
I think that if you're a manager or if you're in management, when you hire an employee, when you hire someone to work for you, it's because you trust them.
You trust them to do a good job for you.
So allowing that flexibility in the work schedule, not knowing where they are at all hours of the day, not knowing what they're doing, but still trusting that they're doing their job.
And that they're doing what they're supposed to do for the company, the job that they were hired to do.
I think that trust should exist between management and employees until it's broken.
It's like, don't give me a reason not to trust you and that trust shall remain.
That's the way I think it should be.
Is it that way? Probably not a lot of the time.
Yeah, I agree with everything you say.
And I think trust definitely should be there.
The reality, I think that managing a hybrid workforce is going to be much more difficult for a manager than, of course, managing a workforce that is in the office physically five days a week.
Because first of all, you're going to have to, because presumably the workers, depending on the size of the company, aren't going to be, you know, having their quote unquote hybrid day at home on the same day every week, right?
You're going to have some of your staff taking, say, the Tuesday off, maybe it depends on the company, I guess.
But all of this in essence means that managers are going to have to manage a workforce that is at home and in the office at the same time.
Yeah, so I think that it's going to be pretty difficult for managers, to be honest with you.
To headache, yeah. Yes, it is.
And the hybrid work model presents both opportunities and challenges for Chinese companies as they cautiously dip their toes into these new waters.
The question remains, will this be the catalyst for a more flexible employee centric work culture in China, or will it expose underlying issues that have yet to be addressed in the Chinese workplace?
Only time will tell. But the implications for productivity, work-life balance, and employee satisfaction hang in the balance.
