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When Sonja felt was 26, she fell for a much older man named Colin, before she even met him.
It started when Sonja rented a room in Collins House in London,
while he was a way teaching English literature in the US.
The first thing Sonja saw when she walked into his home was books, books, books, everywhere.
Just walls lined with bookshelves, poetry, novels, philosophy, psychoanalysis, sociology,
linguistics, just anthropology, health, and also what I noticed was nearly all the books that I owned.
He had copies of as well.
Sonja had grown up in South Africa.
Then after getting her degree in psychology, she'd spent the last few years traveling and staying in hostels.
She got the sense that Colin was a traveler too, from the art he collected.
Sonja wanted to meet the man whose house she felt so at home in.
And then, finally, it happened.
One day, when Sonja and a friend were on their way out of the house,
we met Colin on the stairs. He had these really bright, quick eyes with his quick eye movements.
And he was very energetic and springy on his feet.
And after we walked away from each other, I said to my friend,
I find that man so attractive.
Colin noticed Sonja too.
Even though he was heading back to America, he came up with a way to stay in touch.
When we had spoken, I told him that I write poetry, and he'd invited me to send him my poems.
That was a big moment for me because I was very young and I'd never ever shown anybody my poems
really. And he was this professor of English literature. He was a published poet.
And he then said, coming back from America, would you like to have dinner?
And then we can discuss your poems.
And just before the dinner, he posted me this brown envelope, returning my poems to me on which he had written comments.
This is like romance novel, so okay, so I keep going.
Yeah, and that dinner happened on the 3rd of August.
And we then named that date as our anniversary date.
It was just obvious that both of us were just feeling really affected by each other.
What did he say about your poems?
He was really critical of my poems.
He rubbed him to shred.
Yeah, that was pretty devastating.
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love.
When Colin ripped apart Sonya's poetry, it didn't turn her off.
She liked his directness and his authenticity because that's the kind of person she was.
And the kind of person she wanted to be with.
The connection between the two of them was so magnetic that when Sonya found out that Colin
was 34 years older than her, it didn't stop the two of them from building a genuinely happy
life together.
Sonya and Colin never had a conventional love story.
So when their age difference finally did start to pull them in different directions,
they decided to write their own surprise ending, one that honored their history and prepared them
for the future.
So Sonya, you knew that Colin was older than you when you started dating,
but you didn't know how much older, right?
Tell me about when you found out his age.
I was maybe 27 or 28.
We went on a lot of day trips and then we also went to visit all sorts of amazing literary
places like the home of the Brontis sisters in the Yorkshire malls.
There was a moment where I said to him, I think I should ask you how old you actually are.
And he'd obviously been avoiding it and sort of acting like, you know, this is not something
we really have to think about or talk about.
When I asked him his age, he was over 60.
And that did freak me out because I didn't know anybody who had anything like that sort of age.
I could just beyond anything that's ordinary.
Like I just kept thinking, I wish he was at least under 60, like 60s such a big number.
Could he not just be even in his 50s or in his 40s?
Right.
And anybody who's ever met Colin, if they ever found out what his real age was, they were shocked.
We went running together, you know, he did not come across like a person in his 60s.
And your age difference didn't stop the two of you from falling so hard for each other.
Can you tell me why not?
Why did it not give you pause?
Because I guess neither of us were thinking in that kind of way, like how do you plan for the future
and get your white pick at fence and life insurance policy or things like that?
We both had our heads in all sorts of different books and ideas and that felt like what was real.
And that's what we wanted to share with each other.
And so that wasn't going to stop us.
There was this moment where Colin and I were going to meet at the cinema.
And as we were walking towards each other and I saw him, I just had this really strong feeling
of this is my person.
I would follow this man to the end of the earth.
And I just did not want to think about the number.
If you think about the number, then you have to think this can't work.
And your relationship continues to progress.
You and Colin get married.
You have two kids.
Yeah, we had these children and we both had our interests, our intellectual interests and he was writing.
And when we became involved, he gave up his job in America so that he could come back to London
and be with me full time and that this was the amazing thing about his age actually as a family
because he was home-based all the time.
So I could be the professional woman and I was really settling in as a psychotherapist
and he was my back-up.
You know, he was a very hands-on father and we bought the sort of campervan and we would book
fairies like a ferry from England to Holland and a ferry from Croatia to Italy and a ferry from
France back to England and then we just drive between those fixed points.
With your kids?
Yeah, with our kids.
Was there any friction with your age gap?
Did having kids make you nervous about it?
No, it was the opposite. I think having kids really lulled me into just feeling this is life
and we are a family like all the other families like the schools that the kids go to and you meet all
the other families that the school gates and all that sort of thing.
You fit in with the mainstream in terms of like you raising kids in a neighborhood where
there are lots of families raising kids and you are coming together around all the children's
activities and you're having dinner parties and it's cemented. We are a viable couple. We are a
unit of four and the world accepts us. So that just made me stop worrying about it even more.
There were a couple of occasions after school gates where a new parent would refer to Colin
as our child's grandfather and it was always a bit embarrassing and you kind of have to correct
them but I you know we sort of take that in our stride.
I mean it sounds like you didn't let other people's assumptions get to you but
something did start to change between you two as the kids got older as Colin got older.
Can you tell me about what that change was?
You know at this point he was very close to 80 and I think this often happens with people as
they get into much older age. It's almost like their childhood memories become more vivid
than their more short term memories you know they become sort of really interested in
processing their life and making sense of their life and they're sort of looking backwards.
Interesting. Whereas I was sort of really looking forwards.
I was feeling confident. I was like really enjoying finding out more about the world and being
active and meeting more people so they started being these differences like a sort of phase of life
differences between us. We weren't being intimate anymore and it was just clear that that was
kind of over for him and it just wasn't part of our relationship anymore.
What was that like for you losing that physical part of your relationship?
It was a few years where I was kind of grappling with that and I did feel a bit weird
like I felt as a psychotherapist. I started feeling a bit like a fraud when clients were talking
to me about their sex lives and I'm starting to forget what this is about. It's like really
becoming something that's not part of my life anymore and I felt horrible about that.
But I loved him so much and valued everything we had together so much.
Everybody has to put up with something and I thought if a physical relationship is something
we don't have anymore then that's my sort of thing that I'm deprived of. We used to have that
and we produced two amazing children. It wasn't an option to me that I was going to end this
relationship. Right. And I just felt this is something that I have to accept.
But then there is this one moment where you're not able to ignore the fact that
this physical component of your relationship with Colin has disappeared. Can you tell me about that?
Yeah. So an old-school friend of mine had got into all these weird and wonderful things
like reading tarot cards and we always have one friend from school.
And she said to me, I've got this thing I can sort of give you an assessment of your well-being
and I can read your energy. So the standard intriguing to me and completely incomprehensible
and I was like sure I'm up for it. Let's see.
So like I was sitting down and she was sort of standing next to me and she started by hovering
her hands over my head and she said to me, wow there's a lot going on there because I was sort of
always intellectually very intense with lots of ideas and lots going on in my work. And then she
moved her hands down sort of around my chest and she said here's another really strong center of
energy around your heart and that represents your family and your friends. You're having a lot of
fulfillment in that area of your life and that's really strong. And then she kind of hovered her hands
down and then when she sort of got below my waist she said, well the energy's just stopped.
Was there something illuminating about her pointing this out quite directly to you?
Yeah because it made it very obvious that there was something very unbalanced in my life
and I felt really really sad and I just felt like something in me's dead.
You know so that was the first time that I I was seeing that lack in terms of holistic well-being
as a human being living a full life. What did you do? How did you process that? Did you tell Colin about it?
No. I think you know by that point already that being a few conversations that hadn't gone well
and I just felt like that is where he's at and that's not going to change by me saying to him,
you know what I'm really missing this part of life? You know he can't change that he's
coming towards the end of the human lifespan. Right, right, of course not. And it seems like maybe
both of you thought that was the end of the discussion but not long after that you decided to take a class
and something happened there that made it harder to accept what was missing from your marriage.
Can you tell me about that class? It was called how to have better conversations because my
specialism is working with very high IQ adults who actually find it difficult to relate to others.
And so I was really interested in well what are the mechanisms of conversation?
So I arrived at this place and sat down and quite soon afterwards this man came up to me and said,
oh do you mind if I sit next to you? And I looked around and there all these rows of empty chairs
his loads of space and he said, can I sit next to you? So he sat down next to me and I noticed
he was very tall. My eyes just went sort of from the eyes to the shoulders to the hips and
it was you were like in what you were seeing. Yeah, so he introduced himself and his name's Richard
and he kind of immediately engaged me in conversation and when the break happened for the class
we didn't even get up and sort of go and get anything to drink. So we just sort of got very sucked
into talking a lot to each other. What happened when the class ended? Did you exchange numbers?
Yeah, so the class ended and at this point Richard came up to me and he said, would you like to go for a drink?
And that was a really big moment for me because it's not like we had a work project we were working on together.
It's not like he was one of the parents of the other children that preferred with my children.
It was like there's no connection that justified me going and having a drink with him other than
I want to. Right, so what did you say? I said yes and as we stepped out into the London street,
it was the week before Christmas and everything's all lit up and I just had this feeling of I'm crossing
a line that I never have crossed. When we come back, what happens with Sonja and Richard
and with Colin on the other side of that line? That's next.
This podcast is supported by Cartier.
A few years ago I went to Croatia to recover after the death of my young brother and while I was there,
I met this fisherman, a man in his 60s and we sort of started to talk to each other but we didn't
really have a common language but it eventually became clear that he had also lost a young man,
namely his son. And we started to spend quite a lot of time together. He would take me to farm his
vegetables and we'd drink his homemade wine but all of it in really complete silence.
I was able to think about it, but it happened with my brother in a much
freer and more comfortable way because there was someone there thinking about his son at the same
time. And it was really just this remarkable moment where someone I didn't know a complete stranger
saw what I needed. With love from Cartier.
I'm Julie Tarkowitz. I'm a reporter at the New York Times to understand changes in migration.
I traveled to the Darian gap. Thousands have been risking their lives to pass through the border
of Columbia and Panama in the hopes of making it to the United States. We interviewed hundreds of
people to try and grasp what's making them go to these lengths. New York Times journalists spend
time in these places to help you understand what's really happening there. You can support this
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Okay, so Sanya, you just said yes to a drink with Richard, the cute guy you met in class.
And then what happens? At that drink Richard said to me, let's do something that we were told in
the class. And in the class the presenter had said for having better conversations when you meet
somebody and you don't ask them what do you do because that just takes people along the track
of repeating all your boring stories about what your job is. So Richard said to me,
how about we don't tell each other what we do? And that was a lot of fun. Like we didn't talk about
those usual things you talk about that sort of define you as an employee or a parent or a spouse.
You know, we just kind of didn't talk about who we were in relation to anything else. We were
just talking about like who we were. How old was Richard at the time? 39. He's a few years younger than me.
And he was exactly 40 years younger than Colin, 40 years. Okay, much closer to your age.
Yeah, at the end of the drink, there was this moment about like are we exchanging numbers? And
I just wrote just Sonia and my email address because I didn't want to have phone calls with
the stranger, but there was a feeling of like I don't just want to never see him again. Right.
And it started raining and the rain smudged the words of the paper. And it was like, I don't know if
he can still read my email address. But the next day I received an email from him and
in it he said he'd really enjoyed our conversation and he'd love to continue our experiment about
how to have better conversations. Would I like to come to lunch and I knew that I could not go.
So I wrote to him and said I got the feeling that maybe you're single, but I have to tell you,
I'm not. How did Richard react to that? Well, he responded by saying nothing in your circumstances
would stop me from wanting to get to know you. Wow. And how did that make you feel to read that?
Well, it was amazing. I mean, it's it's amazing in life meeting a human being who you feel interested
in and drawn to who feels the same way about you. Mm-hmm. Totally. I mean, it's magic. So after that,
you did see Richard again, but you tried to keep it platonic, right? Yeah. What happened is Richard and I
were getting to know each other a bit by email. Mm-hmm. And then we met up and we kissed. And so there
was a big question about what is going on here and what do I do about this or what does it mean for
either of us. And then Richard had a very busy period of work and he kind of disappeared. I
read that as like why would he want to carry on seeing a woman who's married with children.
Right. Like he actually can't do this and I started confronting what this means for me.
Mm-hmm. Like what's Richard stirred up in me and like that kiss, it was the feeling of
I actually don't want to live anymore without this in my life. Mm-hmm. And that's when I went to
Colin by saying that to him. I got to the point where I felt I just have to tell him I can't do
this anymore, but it wasn't about Richard. I didn't even mention Richard. Right. Because at that
point it wasn't about Richard. It was about me and my life as a woman and my marriage with Colin
and what that marriage was denying me. But that must have been such a difficult conversation
to have with Colin. How did you feel bringing it up? I just felt terribly choked up and kind of
guilty. It was yeah it was really intense and awful. Mm-hmm. And it was fear or terror. Like does
this mean we have to name that this is over between us and does that mean we break up? Yeah.
How did Colin react? Well he was completely amazing. We started talking about well what does a
couple in our situation do and we were like absolutely clear there's no way we want to separate.
Mm-hmm. We love each other. We want to both be there without children daily. Like not have
them go between us. I wasn't going to be deceiving him and seeing somebody behind his back.
Great. And then the other option was that Colin condones me finding a lover and that I do that
discreetly so that it doesn't in any way affect the children or our life together. But that I am
kind of released to experience that side of life again and that was the option that we agreed on.
Mm-hmm. And at that point I was thinking well Richard's gone like it's not going to be Richard.
He does return though. Well what happened was it was clear that there was something that really
sparked between us in a very genuine way and so I reached out to him and I said you know we haven't
been in touch for a while but could we maybe just meet up even if it's for one last time and then
we met up and I then told him about what had happened with Colin and he said he thought that
was really brave of me to have talked with Colin and then we got involved.
So I had this office in Harley Street and then that became the place where we would meet you know
after everybody in the building was gone and we saw many many subrises from my window at Harley
Street and we had this rule so my youngest child would always he had this little clock that shows
the moon and stars at night and it was set so that the little sun comes up at 6.30 in the morning
and at 6.30 in the morning he would get up and run into my bedroom and I said to Richard I have to
always be back in my bed at home because I never want my child to wake up and come and run in
and I'm not there. But it's so I mean it really speaks to the fact that even though you're building
this new romance with Richard you absolutely still have a full life a family a home you know a
marriage with Colin. Yeah did you feel like you were living in a kind of split screen? Yeah I mean
it was really tricky because of course I felt really awkward about being with a different man
and then when I was with Richard it was kind of you know he wasn't part of the family it was so
hard trying to keep those life separate. I had lived with Colin and our children for so long
it felt really weird that I was building a relationship of a really important kind with a new
human being and they weren't meeting him and and Richard even there was a nightmare Richard said
well Colin's been such an important part of your life I would like to meet who that is.
So it's really clear that this relationship with Richard has become so much more than just sex
right? Yeah but Colin doesn't even know about Richard at this point. That's right and there was this
moment where because Colin realized that I was staying out very late at night and arriving back
at 629 and I said to him do you kind of want to know what's happening and then he said well
in broad brush strokes okay and so then I said to him well there's person that I told you I'd
admit that might have in the class that's the person that I'm out with whenever I go out.
You know he's a really decent person he's like a serious person and then Colin said
that's a lot more threatening then. I suppose if he felt I'm falling in love with someone with
that actually be the thing that would be strong enough to pull me away. Right. Because were you
falling in love with Richard? Absolutely. How did you two move forward after that it must have been
really scary for you both? Well there was a point where Colin said I think maybe we should meet
and I couldn't believe it when he said that. So we invited Richard to come to the house
and he was going to be introduced as a friend and yeah we just kind of hang out and make tea
and after we'd introduced each other and spent a bit of time together and all of that I left
with the children I'd arranged it like this so I would then take one of the children to their piano
lesson and the other one would come with me and then Colin and Richard were alone at home.
We were out for about three or four hours and we came back to the house and they were just
really chatting and they'd been there for hours. Wow. So even though this meeting went way
better than you could have ever imagined there were still so many complex feelings involved.
Right. And that led to another incredibly difficult conversation with Colin. Can you tell me
about that? Yeah. There was this day where I was with friends in the garden sitting around the
swimming pool and we decided let's order a pizza and I went into the house to ask Colin if he
wanted a pizza and I found that he was still in bed with the shutters closed in the dark and room
and I was like really shocked because he's always the first one to get up in the morning
and I said what's wrong and then he said this is just all going so fast and then I was just so
upset and I said you know this is awful I can stop this I will stop seeing him and then Colin
said no I don't want you to stop seeing him. I'm adjusting and I am the past Richard is the
future. Wow. And after that I saw that he was properly investing in wanting Richard to build
a relationship with the children. For example he was tutoring our younger son to do entrance exams
for a school and he said to me one day is Richard coming today because I don't want to do
tutoring session if Richard's coming because I want them to be able to spend time together.
Wow and I just couldn't believe the selflessness of him being able to see the whole in that way.
I mean it's really incredible and what a powerful and generous and deeply difficult thing to do
especially because you know we started this conversation by talking about how almost
in denial he was about his age but it feels like at this time he's really facing that denial head
on. Yeah absolutely and in a way and this is what my mother said about it she said that she felt
me meeting Richard released Colin from having to try and be a partner to me at my age and stage
of life. And then we agreed that we would divorce so that Richard could legally marry me because
Richard had asked me he'd he'd hypothetically proposed to me he'd said if you were free to marry me
would you want to marry me and I had said yes. After we agreed that Richard and I would get married
he moved in so Colin had his own separate bedroom and Richard and I shared a bedroom and the
children had their bedrooms and and we were like a family of five where we you know that was
that was our life and we went on holidays together. You go on a camper the five of you in the camper.
We did yeah and how many years did that sort of family of five continue for until Colin's death
in December 2020. So four years of Richard living with us before Colin passed away at the age of 86.
I'm so sorry Zanya. What's life been like since Colin's passing how are things with Richard?
Well we are very happy together and I love it that he knew and liked and respected Colin
and that we had lots of shared experiences with the children and Colin and there's that continuity for the children.
You know people kind of expect that there's going to be just conflict or two men could never
live together or they could never accept each other or that sort of thing and those are the kind
of natural human primitive impulses but like the big key for me in all of this is the conversation.
It's like we can talk about these things and face reality together. You know you don't usually have
a succession plan in love but why not.
Zanya thank you so much for telling me the story of these two great loves of your life,
the story of Colin and the story of Richard. I think our conversation today is a beautiful
testament to Colin's memory so thank you so much. Well thank you very much. It's like very special to
sort of process that together.
Modern love is produced by Julia Botero, Christina Joza, Crystal Duhaim and Riva Goldberg.
It's edited by our executive producer Jen Poyant with help from Riva Goldberg and Mark Pagan.
This episode was mixed by Sophia Landman and Corey Shrepple. Our show is recorded by Maddie
Masiello and fact checking is by Will Pyshel. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell,
original music by Mary and Luzano, Dan Powell and Carol Sabero, digital production by Mejimuchoblani
and El Galogli. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, Meal Lee is the editor of Modern
Love Projects. I'm Anna Martin, thanks for listening.
