Okay, listen up.
I have some questions for you.
Were you the easy kid?
The good kid?
You know, the one the teachers loved?
The one who got the gold stars?
The one maybe where your parents described you as, oh, you got so lucky with her?
Were you responsible?
Driven?
Even if you kind of roll your eyes like, yeah, you kind of had it all together.
And now maybe you're a mom and you're an adult and you're sitting on the floor of the bedroom at 11 pm folding laundry that was already folded, going around cleaning your house and then maybe finding yourself hysterically crying on the bathroom floor.
First of all, I'm not trying to call you out because, holy moly, every single thing about what I just said was totally me.
That story was also the story of our guest today, Dr. Cassidy Freitas.
Dr Cassidy is a licensed marriage and family therapist and she writes about what it looks like for moms to loosen the grip of old patterns, especially patterns of perfectionism.
And make a little more room for themselves or maybe for a wider version of who they could be.
I'm so excited for an episode solely focused on perfectionism because I get asked about this all the time.
Or maybe I get asked about it not explicitly, but so many of the common questions I have can be connected through the lens of perfectionism.
And I think the conversation I have with Dr. Cassidy today is going to hit you in a lot of ways.
I think it's going to hit your heart.
I think it's going to make you think about your early years.
And I think it's going to leave you with a new framework to think about some of the things that you're really really good at, some of the things that make you you, and we would never want to take away, and maybe a slightly new lens to give you a little bit more freedom along your parenting journey.
I'm Dr. Becky.
This is Good Inside.
I'm really glad you're here.
Hi, Cassidy.
Hi, Becky.
So I know there's a million topics we could get into today, but there are so many moms I know who have daily battles with perfectionism.
And I just want us to talk about that today, because perfectionism and motherhood and the way perfectionism in motherhood can sometimes really come from so many years earlier, way before we were moms, and I know it's stuff the two of us have kind of lived into.
And so maybe we could just start there.
Like when you hear perfectionism and motherhood.
Where does your brain start going or what stories start coming to mind?
I'm so glad that you decided to talk about this.
So what stories come to mind?
You know what the first story that comes to mind is, the first image?
It's It's my mom.
It's my own mom.
Of course, our bodies, our brains are story-making machines.
And so I could start off with talking about here's what perfectionism is is from a clinical perspective and how I see it.
Show my clinical work.
And I want to get there.
But you know what?
First, I want to talk about my mom because A lot.
I definitely struggled with perfectionism in early motherhood.
And that part of me still lives with me today.
And I think about my mom.
She's a Hispanic woman who is a judge now.
And you know, in order to get to where she is today, in primarily white, male-dominated spaces, there was no room for error for her.
And I understand that now.
As a kid, all I saw was how that part of her that needed to be perfect, no room for error to survive belong, achieve in the spaces that she was showing up in.
All I saw, all little Cassidy saw, was perfection.
The her that came home who had that part of her that followed her home too.
And I idolized her, I still do.
And her and I have done a ton of work.
She read my book and you know that was really healing to invite her in to read that and for her to be open to that.
But you know, she never said sorry.
There wasn't room for that.
And it also my stories.
When I first hear that word, I also think about my dad, who grew up financially insecure.
And the way that he needed to reclaim safety and belonging was also through achievement.
And for him, it was like straight A's, good grades.
You need to get a scholarship.
That's the only way you're gonna be able to go to college.
And I think about all of that coming together and then becoming parents.
And then I think about little me in the midst of all that, just absorbing everything around me, trying to figure out how do I keep these people safe, these very loving people, but how do I keep them close?
How do I belong?
How do I stay safe?
And there was my little anxious part.
And then there was my perfectionist part that stepped in and was like, girl, I got this.
Like, let's just Be perfect.
What that does is it makes it so that nobody looks too close because I'm all put together and you won't have to see these parts of me that feel a little messy, that have some like pretty big feelings, these vulnerabilities.
If I can just be perfect and achieve and hold that all together, then I will be safe, I will belong, I will be lovable.
And you know what?
That part was at the wheel for a long time.
When you go back to your childhood, were there explicit things that were said or were the lessons more things you picked up from just dynamics around you, or both?
Definitely both.
But there is a saying, you know, that was said every day when I was dropped off at school, and it was work hard and do your best.
And that sounds really, really, really great.
And I really think that there can be that can be shared with with all the right intention and can actually be received, with all the things that work out really well.
And for me, though without with all the things that I was observing around me and trying to make sense of the world around me, what those were, how I translated those words, because they weren't there, wasn't like a conversation around.
What do those words actually mean in real time?
It was work hard and never stop.
And do your best, but also be the best.
I want to double click on that because I do think you and I have worked with so many different adults and it is rare.
For someone to say you know, I really remember my parents were saying you need to be perfect all the time.
You're not allowed to make mistakes.
I don't actually know that many adults who remember their parents saying that.
And then they kind of blame themselves.
Like, why am I like this?
Like, this is so nuts.
Why am I so hard on myself?
And again, it's not about blaming anyone.
It's not about blaming your environment or blaming your parents.
Everyone's been doing the best they can. they could with what they had available.
It's just about understanding yourself.
And Cassidy, you just put language to something that I think everyone listening can like.
Pause and do an exercise around.
Hold on.
There were probably moments in my house that I can still see.
It was like that birthday party or the response when I missed the soccer goal.
And my parents said all the right things in the car, but their face said something different.
And you can zoom in on a moment where there were words like the words that were told to you when you're dropped off.
Or sometimes these flashing memories have no words.
It's just like a scene.
A facial expression, a scene.
Exactly.
Or maybe it's what someone was saying when they were watching your brother.
But what kids do with words said to them, with words said around them or just with a scene, is they make up a story in their head.
And the story gets remembered and practiced over and over.
And that's a kid doing their best to try to make meaning, always figuring out how can I be the person my family wants us?
How can I be the person my family wants me to be so I can get all the love and attention and belonging that actually are my basic needs?
So again, this is where fault is to the side, but that is the mantra you went into school with every single day.
It absolutely is.
And it's not just this feels so important to say.
This is not just a thing that my parents decided to say and there was no like context around it.
There were real systems of oppression and real, like cultural discourse that influenced them to feel like.
That is what needs to be said and done in order to survive.
And they, right, like they have their own trauma and they broke some cycles themselves.
For me, my dad hit me once when I was little because that was how he was raised.
And my mom made sure that that never happened again, as did he.
And I'm forever grateful for that from them.
And so little me takes that all in and it's like, well, that's how you do this then, right?
That my nervous system to find safety was like, be perfect, get straight A's.
And then I became a mom and I was like, how the heck do I be a straight A mom?
How did you I bet you figure I bet you I bet you work the system, Cassidy.
You were very good.
What did you do?
I mean, I bet it backfired later.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm sure there's a crash.
But how did you crush it first?
How did you I mean, I say crushing quotes.
How did you get straight A's when you became a mom?
How did you try to at least?
I got crushed is what happened.
No, but okay.
So, to start off, I know that you have now like the baby side of things and that I'm so glad that Good Inside is stepping into the baby world, because this is This is where we got to meet parents, because here's what happened.
You know, I did get straight A's for a lot of my life.
I worked myself to the bone.
I had a lot of panic attacks.
I had a lot of anxiety.
I was prescribed a lot of things to manage the panic around anxiety. you know, performance.
And then I got pregnant and I was like, I know what I'm going to do.
I am going to create the most perfect birth plan that is going to be, and this is in quotes, please hear me when I put this in quotes, the most natural birth birth and i am going to it is going to be x y and z i am writing it out here to my doctor please put this in my records um this is the plan and this is my syllabus and i am going to get an a this is my syllabus i've written it out you can go execute this plan for me thank you and please thank you vagina cooperate Please, that's, you were made for this, right?
Like, this is what we do, body.
I will control this situation to keep.
Ultimately, when I really drop in that part of me, it was just like in my most preferred version of that part was just like we want to keep you and this baby that we are so looking forward to meeting.
We want to keep you all safe.
Yes, of course.
I hired a doula who shared some of these rigid values.
Let me say this so clearly.
I love doulas and postpartum support people.
I found someone who aligned with my straight A birth plan.
Your magnet was strong.
Very strong magnet.
Very strong.
Yes.
And then when it all fell apart and, speaking of you said this earlier when I've been pushing for two hours and it was time for me to have a belly birth, I remember the look on the doula's face, who was in the corner.
And I felt so much shame and so much sense of failure.
And she left.
She didn't stick around.
And I was in that delivery, the operating room.
And I was so exhausted.
I couldn't open my eyes when they pulled her out.
My husband was like, she's here, Cassidy.
She's here.
Look at her.
And I turned my face away.
And was it exhaustion and medications and all the things?
And like, I had not prepared for this.
Like I had, I wasn't, I didn't understand all the cold and the bright lights.
I hadn't let my brain go there because that was how I protected myself from that experience.
And so it was also jarring, but also it was my shame.
That part of me that just was whispering in my ear, you fucked up.
This was your first fucking job as a mom.
And she's here and I couldn't even look at her.
And then that was intense and that was traumatic, but then it was sleep, I'm sleep deprived.
I stayed up constantly.
It was like, I will now give you all of me at every moment.
At every waking or sleeping possible moment, I will be here.
I will give you everything.
I will breastfeed you exclusively.
My nipples were scabbed and they were bleeding and I got mastitis and it was just like...
What the heck?
All of my protective mechanisms were not able to keep up. is how it felt.
And I remember a moment.
I remember a time when she was she'd been crying for hours and I called the pediatrician and they were just like well, you know, she's three weeks now.
Like this is, this is just kind of it.
And I finally called my mother-in-law and she came over.
And of course I handed my mother-in-law, she immediately stops crying.
And you know, probably because she I mean for many reasons, but like probably one because I'm the bacon right.
I smell like breast milk.
And immediately when you give her to someone else.
Because she kept rooting, I kept putting her on my breast like and she was getting really gassy and crying like because we were just like popping on, popping off.
She's trying to self-soothe.
Handing her to someone else who doesn't have the bacon, you can smell.
And she's like, oh, she's not, I'm not hungry.
I can sleep.
Oh, she fell asleep.
I can make sense of that now.
But in the moment, my thought was she would be better off without me.
She'd be better off without, she'd be better off with her.
I went in my room.
I was, like you know, one of those like on the floor moments, just like daydreaming about escaping and just berating myself for like you wanted this, like you like, and there must be no one else who is like this shitty or having thoughts like I wanna care for her, but she feels like an alien.
I don't feel really attached.
I want to go spend a night in a hotel.
I'm having thoughts like, I was having scary intrusive thoughts.
Like if I leave the house, I'll drop her, her, Like bad things will happen, like images of that.
Well, turns out I had postpartum anxiety, right?
But I think at the time I had shame around that that as well.
And what shame does, is it whispers to you?
Don't let anyone see what perfectionism whispers is like girl, just hold it all together.
Post this thing on instagram like get dressed, like take a shower, like you.
Don't let them close, don't let them see.
It's like channeling my inner, like elsa right.
Like don't, I'm going to go build my frozen castle and you just all stay over there and I will deal with this mess over here.
I'm fine.
So many who come in and I'm like, okay, they come in.
And a lot of times they come in because they're like these certain things with my kids trigger me.
Like I feel so triggered.
And here's the thing that I have felt and I believe and that I've seen my clients kind of get to.
You might.
OK, let's paint a picture.
It's the kids are finally asleep.
How old are my kids in this scenario?
They seven and five.
I need the details to imagine things.
You know me.
OK, you know what?
I know.
I know.
But actually, they're asleep during this whole scenario.
So like they can be whatever age you need them to be.
OK, good.
Yes, they're finally asleep, though.
And I guess, if they're finally asleep, they're probably like my five year old, who is just like constantly like another snack.
And I need I need a rub.
Like I my head hurts.
Like I need to tell you this story.
And I'm like, OK, OK, finally asleep. we finally get this margin, which I'm obsessed with.
And the book is all about the through line of the whole book.
The punchline is we need margins in space in a multitude of ways, but this margin finally arrives.
And you're like, oh my gosh, I finally I get to catch up on heated rivalry that everyone's talking about.
Or I get to like have this like moment to myself.
And then this grating berating voice, isn't that like a TikTok audio or something right now?
This grating berating voice comes in and it's like, Look at all those dishes.
Look at that laundry pile.
Remember those emails?
Remember how that influencer said that you're supposed to pack these lunches before.
That's going to help you in the morning.
And like, and it's... a berating voice.
It's a voice that feels like if I don't do this, I'm doing this wrong and there's something wrong with me.
And so my clients are like, okay, but that voice helps me optimize things, motivates me.
I give a lot of credit to a lot of my achievements to this voice.
And my response to that is that there's a place to get to where actually the decision might still look like choosing to do that email or do the dishes.
But it is a different voice.
It is not a berating drill sergeant shaming voice.
It's it's that it's it's the self.
It's, it's that version of you that comes in and it's like oh OK there, I have a couple of options here.
And ultimately, you know, guilt.
It's just there to let us know when we've done something out of alignment with our values.
Doesn't always get it right.
Doesn't always deliver the message in the way that is most ideal.
Here's, here are the things that I value and here's what I, the value I'm choosing to prioritize.
And actually maybe sitting down to watch heated rivalry and catch up before it gets spoiled.
You know, for me on my daily scroll is I, when I get a chance to do this for myself and I will be more present for my kid, because I had that margin of space, that margin of time to come back into my body, to come back into the things that I connect with.
That feel good.
And also sometimes that decision is to teddy up something around the house, but it's, it's driven by such a different place and voice and it's it's it's, it could be the same part, but that part is finally like able to ease into its role a little bit, sometimes take a nap in the back seat and not be driving my decision making.
Um, It's a different experience with that part of you.
We're not getting rid of this part of you.
We're not asking it to like take a hike.
Recently I traveled to Texas for work and it was one of those trips where there was so much going on which can be really energizing and really exhausting.
And that's what's so great about booking stays on Airbnb when you travel.
We booked a home in a really beautiful part of Austin that was so peaceful.
It had this amazing porch surrounded by trees.
And when you're on a busy trip, having a place like that to drink your morning coffee and ground yourself just makes a huge difference.
And the other thing that helps me feel grounded when I'm traveling is when someone can help with all the logistics.
When you book a home on Airbnb, you can have groceries delivered upon your arrival, which meant that in Austin, I could focus on being present instead of running to the store.
And dinner?
There's something really special about sharing a meal around a table, even when you're traveling.
And that's especially true when you're traveling with family.
Because when you book a home on Airbnb, you get that space a real kitchen, a dinner table, a backyard where the kids can actually run around.
The kind of setup that makes a trip feel less like a disruption to your family's routine and more like an extension of it.
That's why I love booking homes through Airbnb.
I can do the things that will help me feel grounded so I can make the most out of my trip.
I think you know this about me, but I like making anything concrete, right?
And I think so many things have been made concrete to make movement and shifts on them.
And so, you know, I was in a stage with my older kid And I was like, OK, I know he's getting older.
He has to like pack his backpack.
He always has sports after school like packing snacks so he doesn't have to spend money that I'm telling he's not going to have on the vending machine.
Like he has to do that gets him late.
All these things have to get done.
His water bottle not getting done, not getting done.
And so I worked with him around kind of what could you do?
You know, to get it, you have things you have to get done.
And I think that's my perfectionistic part.
There's things you got to get done.
Like you have to do all these things before you do that thing.
It's very rigid, very drill sergeant-y.
And I helped him create this kind of list, post it, like things I need to do before tomorrow.
Okay.
And it was this list.
It went okay.
He's a fairly easygoing kid too, right?
Anyway, I made a shift a little bit after that.
It's such an interesting shift and it just goes to.
The outcome doesn't necessarily have to change, but the process with which we get there is the thing that builds circuitry in our body.
And that circuitry will play out in so many other moments.
So it's more powerful than the single outcome.
So.
The post-it changed to, I will take care of my tomorrow self.
I love that.
And he rolled his eyes.
He's like, mom, take that.
Like, what is wrong with you?
Cringe.
Disgusting.
You know, but then it became like a joke.
Right.
And I always think that our kids get older when they want to roll their eyes at us.
It's just like a compromise.
They're just like, this is actually a good idea, but I have to vomit my way through it.
So just allow me to do that for my independence.
Fine.
But. the kind of post it was really little stayed up and it has been so much more effective.
He now says it back to me, packing snacks, mom, taking care of my tomorrow self.
And I'm like, I know it's so annoying.
And then secretly I'm like, oh, I played that so well, you know?
And when I, okay, you win, I win.
I really win.
But when I think about my kids' future and I think about them living outside my house and asking themselves the question like oh, how can I take care of my tomorrow self, versus Oh, my goodness, what's the list of things I have to do?
And oh my goodness, I didn't get them done.
The circuit is so different.
And so I love what you're saying.
I don't want to lose my edge.
You don't want to lose your edge.
Edges are good.
Let's keep our edges.
The way we get there might change and, beyond feeling better, might actually be more effective in a wider range of situations.
I think context is the bridge to compassion.
If I can contextualize why this feels like so pressured and so intense and so berating and so shameful, and so if I can contextualize that and I can see that it didn't start with me and actually these are systems that I want to like, fight against.
You know, I don't want my kids to absorb these same narratives.
If I can contextualize, it's so much easier for me to have compassion for that part of me when it pops up and I'm like, And I'm like, hey girl like, Of course, of course.
You know, telling yourself the story about why it makes sense.
Why does this make sense?
Where did this come from, right?
Our body...
I always have this weird thing where I think the feelings part of our body gain acceptance from the cognitive part of our body when we tell ourselves the story of why our feelings make sense.
It's like, oh, like we all want.
It's like all the parts are kind of in harmony inside ourselves.
OK, I have another question for you around perfectionism in motherhood.
Connection between perfectionism and motherhood and burnout.
Ooh.
Yes.
Well, we've been kind of, I think, gearing up towards this, right?
Yeah.
Which is... if perfectionism is at the wheel, right?
And this is the part of me that is like, I need to be incredibly productive.
I need to get, do everything exactly right by the book.
I need to achieve.
I need to work hard and never stop and be the best at this.
And then we will be safe, right?
If she's at the wheel, she is never putting on the brakes, taking a beat like putting down her phone right.
Like she's never, just as I was thinking that there's some birds out here that just started tweeting.
I heard them, that was beautiful.
Did you?
Yeah, thank you for that audio.
I'm not getting a chance.
Thank you for that.
Thank you, birds.
I don't get it.
I don't... She's not pausing to look outside and be like... What birds?
Oh, yeah.
She's not...
In her calendar and we can imagine that there's this magical calendar that actually on it is every single thing that takes up every single moment of your day, not just the activities and appointments.
I'm talking the obscure questions from your kid on the drive home.
I'm talking.
The email pings the paperwork for summer camps, the five minute voice note you sent to your friend right.
Like you're scrolling while you're waiting for your coffee.
If every moment was filled and she was at the wheel, It would be filled.
We would be optimizing everything we possibly could and always be on, because that's how we.
That that feels tied to love, I think too.
Right.
And and safety.
But what our brains are so desperate for, Becky and I know you know this our brains desperately need space and margins to even just process everything we consumed, to access things like food, Curiosity and creativity for everything we consume and how it might apply to our particular life or situation.
But in our digital era, intensive parenting era, optimize everything.
And then especially throw in perfection at the wheel.
There, of course.
Of course, when your kid isn't listening or is defiant or like it starts crying or screaming, of course our brain is gonna take the most familiar path.
One last question, then I'm gonna move you to our rapid fire.
One thing, and I know you've worked with so many moms in your practice.
You know that oh, I need to get this right.
I'm not doing enough.
That perfectionistic voice.
What is one thing someone could do in that moment to just shift a little or try on something new?
So I immediately put my hand on my chest because that's Like there is like a little bit of just like a reconnection to my body, of coming back in my body.
I am a body that has a body because I can spend so much time.
I'm putting my hand over my head and my brain, like in my brain up here, just swirling.
It's like, oof, wait, coming just back into my body.
And I love things like you're enough, right?
Like you're worthy, like have compassion.
But actually what I like to start with is this phrase.
I like to say, of course, of course you feel this.
Just like a child needs someone to come in and be like, this makes sense.
These feelings are real.
You are real.
You are a human body that is feeling this thing and this is real.
I need that too.
These parts of me need that too.
What's so cool is that I'm sure parenting...
Experts books have talked about this, but like where that actually came from, like me knowing like that's what I need first is that little me still lives in me.
And maybe people call that intuition.
Maybe people call that like, like you, you, like it's already within you.
And what I just think it is, is like, I was a kid once too.
I went through things.
I had experiences.
So it's just like a hand on my chest and it's just like, of course, of course this, of course you feel this.
And, and then, yes, then it's a, you know, we just, we took a margin, a beat.
Mom took a moment.
It's a beat between trigger and response.
Love that for me in this moment, if that's what I do.
And then it's choosing a different response, right?
It's all the other good stuff that can come from that.
But we first have to take that pause and that beat.
And that's the through line of mom needs a moment.
Ready, rapid fire?
Yes.
Is there a good mom rule you've let go of?
Is there a good mom rule that I've let go of? that it has to be perfect to be enough.
It can be messy.
And if I don't like certain things around motherhood, that's okay too.
I don't like crafts and that's okay.
Oh, love it.
The first thing your perfectionism tries to do each morning.
Oh.
The first thing my perfectionism likes to do each morning is reach for my phone and see if I got any emails I got to respond to.
Easy dopamine, ready to get things done.
A way you let your kids see you be imperfect that you're proud of.
The other day I yelled at my son, lost it with him, said something along the lines of like it gets harder than this dude.
You know, it was really, really great.
And he looked at me and he's like, you'll be saying the S word soon.
And I got my eyes got big.
He's like, you'll be saying sorry.
And he like stomped off to his room.
And what that means to me.
It took me a while to like realize that that wasn't just a complete shit show of a moment as a parent.
But what I realized was he knew that was coming. something in his body knew that I would repair.
And that I'm proud of because I say sorry many times in a day.
Okay, last one.
Think about when you're kids when they're older and someone just says, oh, your mom?
Like, what was she like?
How do you hope they answer that?
I hope that they say, I felt so safe around her.
She let me be everything that I was being and becoming, and there was never a question of whether or not I could call her.
You know, one of the things I keep thinking about in terms of my conversation with Dr Cassidy was her response when I asked her kind of what she does or what she recommends people do when they feel that intense perfectionistic urge come up.
What both surprised me and resonated deeply about what she said is she didn't have kind of another task.
That's what I was ready for.
My own perfectionistic part.
Okay, then I'm going to go do this thing and that's going to work, and I'm going to crush that new coping skill.
No.
And of course not, because she's so brilliant.
She said what she recommends people do is... take a moment.
In some ways when our perfectionistic part really activates, we're far away from ourselves.
And her recommendation was just to come back to yourself in a really simple and powerful way.
I know my version of that is I put my hand on my heart, kind of tap my heart and just say, I'm here.
I'm here.
And it wasn't until my conversation with Cassidy that I realized maybe this is kind of adult Becky speaking to that inner child, professionistic Becky.
That's why the I'm here is kind of so powerful.
So if that resonates you, feel free to try it on.
Dr. Cassidy's new book is called Mom Needs a Moment.
How to stop your reaction before it starts and become a calmer, happier, more connected parent.
And there is a link to it in the show notes.
And I have a feeling that's going to be really helpful.
I also want to make sure you know that every single day, parents are on the Good Inside app connecting with each other and having real conversations and kind of untangling their parenting from yeah, all the reparenting we're doing for ourselves.
And so, if this conversation struck you because it was more than just parenting strategies for tantrums.
It was actually about the reflections and understanding and work we do along our parenting journey.
I have never been more convinced that the Good Inside app is for you, because parents tell us all the time I changed even more than my parenting changed.
And holy moly, did my parenting change. physicalinside.com to learn more.
I also want to make sure you know that I now have a second podcast.
I know I'm actually so proud because it allows me to return to such an important time in the parenthood journey, the very, very beginning.
It's called Rattled, and it's about the moments new parenthood shakes us.
And there's so much of what Cassidy was saying that was reflecting on those early months when we're beginning our relationship with our new identity as a mom and our new relationship with the baby.
And so I wanted to make sure you knew about that.
And honestly, I would just love if you share that podcast, that feed, with a new parent or pregnant person in your life, because I think it's really going to help them.
And now let's end the way we always do.
And this feels especially apropos.
As we talk about perfectionism, place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart.
And let's remind ourselves and let's remind that inner child in us.
Even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.
I'll see you soon.
