Hey everyone, it's Anna.
Before we start the show, I've got a question about AI.
We want to know if AI has changed a relationship in your life in some big way, and we want to know how.
Maybe you and your partner kept having the same fight, so you let AI listen in as a kind of couples therapist.
Maybe you discovered a friend's chat history and figured out how they were really feeling about you.
Or maybe you needed to impress a girl who you couldn't believe was texting you back, so you used AI to draft up some witty responses and then you had to meet up for a real-life date.
We're interested in all types of relationships, romantic, friendship, family, work.
Tell us how you've encountered AI in your personal life, how it changed a specific relationship, and what you've learned or taken away.
Record a voice memo and email it to us at modernlovepodcast at nytimescom, and we might use your story on the show.
Again, that's modernlovepodcast at nytimes.com.
Thanks.
We can't wait to hear from you.
Now here's today's episode.
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Today, we're talking about codependency.
Codependency has a very bad rep these days.
It's like a dirty word.
We're supposed to be independent, empowered individuals, even when we're in love.
Doesn't codependency mean losing yourself in a relationship?
Doesn't that get unhealthy?
Not if you ask today's guests, husband and wife filmmaking duo Mark Duplass and Katie Asselton.
Mark and Katie are codependent and proud.
They've been married for almost 20 years and they've basically been inseparable since the day they met.
They make movies together.
They live together.
They raise their kids together.
Their personal and professional lives are totally intertwined.
And Katie and Mark love it.
They wouldn't have it any other way.
Their codependency is the inspiration for a new movie they wrote, of course together, called Magic Hour.
Katie directs it and stars in it alongside Daveed Diggs.
And today, Katie and Mark tell me why codependency, with all its complications, is actually a beautiful thing.
And I gotta say, being in the room with those two, they are convincing.
Katie Asselton and Mark Duplass, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you so much.
Okay, so you two have a new movie out.
It's called Magic Hour.
We are not going to spoil this movie, but I do know that the plot, the idea, came to you two when you were talking about your own relationship, right?
Can you speak a little bit about that?
Yeah, sure.
I mean look, all of the movies that we've sort of collaborated on have had shades of our relationship in them.
The puffy chair, the freebie, togetherness.
You know, like all of these, all of the stories we tell Blue Jade, like they're all stories that have loving relationships at their core and their center.
And our imagination is only so strong.
We only have so many ideas.
The next movie's an alien movie.
Exactly.
There are no aliens.
There's no nothing.
There's just us.
It's just different forms of our relationship.
And so you know, when we sat down to sort of Hatch, this idea was like all right, so let's mine our relationship like we do.
And this was recently, right?
Yeah, a couple of years ago.
And, you know, we are now married for 100 years.
We have got kids and dogs.
Don't get too excited.
Yeah.
But it's like, that's my point.
It's like, it's boring.
It's like, there's no drama.
There is no conflict.
And so we were like, well, I mean, we do get really sad when we're away from each other.
Yeah.
So...
We started touching on this idea of codependence and sort of hypothesizing, like what happens when you've built your life with this person and that person goes away.
I mean, it's terrifying.
And I was like well, worst case scenario hon, if I die I'm going to haunt you forever, but not in like a spooky way, not in like a ooh, I'm going to be like making fart jokes and like laughing together and talking about mundane stuff.
Like, I would hope our life just keeps going.
And...
We started sort of talking about the space that someone that you've had such an intense loving connection with leaves in someone's life.
However they may leave it.
How sacred do you keep the space and how healthy is it for you to hold the space, depending on how close you're going to hold it?
And it's for us.
It's like the more your ideas start snowballing as a conversation, then you're like well, that's a movie, because we can keep going.
We're talking about codependency.
You two have self-identified as codependent.
What do you mean when you say codependent?
That's such a good question.
I think we're throwing around this term as if we like, actually know what it means.
But it might just be like I think a therapist is going to listen to this and they're going to be like that's not codependency.
Yeah, but also it's like I think we know it in the way that the general public knows codependency.
And so there's a part of us that's like on this campaign to rebrand codependency like kale.
Yeah.
I totally know.
Like, Kale had such a great publicist.
Like, we are that for codependency.
100%.
Brussels sprouts.
Yeah.
Everything has had its moment.
And now we're like, I think it's time for codependency.
Sure.
Because in our eyes...
It's kind of the thing that we've all been working toward and struggling for is this idea that you're going to find a partner that balances you.
That is, you know, the fourth leg to your table.
Where like, could you stand with three legs?
Sure.
Are you more stable with a fourth leg?
100%.
There is a codependency on this person.
Isn't it what you wanted?
Isn't it the thing that we've been striving for our whole life?
Isn't it what country music has trained us for?
Both modern and old country music.
They both do it.
Isn't it what the romantic comedies we've watched?
The whole idea of the other half and then all of a sudden like codependency is like bad.
I think it's bad branding.
It's interesting.
OK, so you are volunteering for that role, marketing for codependency.
We'll circle back to that.
I mean, you bring up a good point that we're not talking about codependency in like a clinical way.
I'm really interested.
We might be.
Or maybe you are.
I'm just not sure.
You guys go to therapy?
Should we call our therapist and get her on the line?
Well, have you had her deep on it?
We have the same therapist.
I don't know what that means.
Is that recommended?
That's level one of codependency.
Yeah, exactly.
But it's not a couples therapist.
I want to be clear.
No.
We have gone to her together, but we also go to her alone.
Individually.
I love having the same therapist because they have the other side of the story.
They know all the contacts.
You can't possibly truly vilify someone that you want to talk about because they know them.
Wow.
It's so much better.
But I think that, like if I kind of trace it back to the beginning of us, like we're in our late 40s now right,
And so... Speak for yourself.
Yeah.
We'll fact check it later.
You are mid to late.
Mid.
Let's just say mid.
I'm like, whatever.
Mid to late.
And I think when we met, we were 23 and 25.
Yeah.
And there were big romantics in both of us.
You know, we are built that way.
But I think we also like, really succumbed to the music, films and literature that are of the romantic persuasion.
Well, talk to me about that.
What does that mean?
What does that mean to you?
Like, we read Judy Blume's Forever when we were that right age, and it stuck with us.
We read and took in art to make us feel things.
It wasn't like, oh, the story was... It was like...
And take me for that ride.
Break my heart.
I want to feel the feelings.
I want to go deep.
I want to connect on a level that is like I can't do with my peers because they don't get it.
And this was what brought you to – well, tell me the story.
How did you two meet?
I think that's part of what brought us together.
Yeah.
I was living in New York.
I was having a very hard time in my life.
You know, it was a time where I was a struggling artist.
I was doubting my ability to be successful.
And I went to visit my friend who was living out in Los Angeles because I was just like...
It's New Year's.
I don't have any friends back at home in New Orleans where I'm staying with my parents.
I'm just lost.
And I just need to go like go get around someone who has some friends and not son.
Yeah.
And just get in the get in the goddamn sun.
And then the next thing I know he picks me up at the airport and the corridor opens and there's Katie.
And I'm gonna like start crying right now because it was like.
It was like this fucking burst of sun.
And it was like, this is my home.
And I saw it in her face, which was with love, a slightly like bloated with alcohol, young twenties version of Katie.
You know alcohol.
There are tears in your eyes.
She was peppy but i was retaining water, but i was just like.
This is i.
I can't explain it to you that i just got hit by a bolt of fucking lightning.
It was immediate for you.
Wow, I can really feel it from you.
And it's so vivid.
It's making you emotional now.
Pheromones.
Just pure, just like fucking animals.
Yeah.
And my flip side was... Katie's like, this guy has a soul patch.
What the fuck do I do?
And that was a wild thing to have to come to grips with.
Right.
You've got to invest early.
I was a penny stock.
Puffy face, soul patch.
You guys are balancing each other out.
Wait, I do want to split screen it like it is a movie because it sounds like that to me.
I got in the car and he was sitting in the front seat and he turned around and I was like fuck, I'm in trouble.
All of a sudden, we just locked—and we started talking over the course of that afternoon in a way that, like I had never talked to anyone,
What were you talking about?
Can you recall?
We talked about people we dated.
We talked about— a lot of relationship, family stuff.
And we just were able to like spill to each other and be really honest and vulnerable.
And I was like I've never had this conversation.
There was this energy of us kind of like leaning into something with each other that we couldn't quite define.
You know, but it's all surrounded by like, the energy of New Year's, so it's like well, what's this gonna be?
You know,
And then we ended up at a bar later that night.
And I think the defining element of the beginning of our relationship for me was You know, we had our first kiss that night, but it wasn't at midnight.
It was at like 1130.
Well, I'm needing you guys to describe this kiss, if possible.
I'm sitting at the bar at Daddy's right near the jukebox.
Daddy's is a bar in Hollywood that's no longer there.
Oh, may it rest in peace.
Good for everybody, honestly.
Great name.
It's fine.
The best bar ever.
Jukebox is on and there's David Bowie going and Katie's coming out of the bathroom down a long hallway and I catch eyes with her and she catches eyes with me and it's busy.
It's a busy bar.
Time stops for like a little bit and she takes a nice initiative and walks slowly up to me and I'm like okay.
I didn't, like, walk slowly, you guys.
I think in his mind it was like in slow motion, but it felt like I slowly walked to him, like seductively or anything.
I walked toward him.
It was a fucking saunter and you know it.
Listen, I gotta sway, yeah.
And she came up to me and I was like okay, she made this move.
So like I have to like do some sort of expression, were you nervous, very nervous, but also, like I know I can't just explain.
I was like, I know, this is kind of what we're supposed to be doing right now.
And she looks at me and she says, you're cute.
And I was like, even with the sideburns?
And the soul patch?
With two fingers, I blocked the soul patch.
Did you actually do that?
I closed one right now.
That would have been incredible.
That would have been cool.
I just did one of these and I was like, oh, yeah.
There it is.
For those listening, she's covering the soul patch.
And I put my hand just like ever so lightly on your hip.
And we lean in and we have this pretty long, but not, like you know, not to get too graphic, but it wasn't like sloppy make out, you know, it was like
It was like a movie kiss.
Yeah.
But to dig just a little deeper into it from there.
It wasn't like we're describing a lot of romanticism right now.
Then from there, it was- That first year was so fucking hard.
A lot of fear and fighting.
And I love you so much.
This is so exciting.
Oh, God.
Tell me about this, because I think that what you are painting.
It's basically the ideal.
Everyone dreams of going to the city and having a beautiful person step out of a door and into your life and have this mutual recognition that like oh, it's on, you know, like it's on.
The music swells and the montage starts.
I mean, this is a dream. a dream.
But I'm liking to be brought back down to earth a little bit.
Tell me about that.
100%.
What happened?
Well, we're dating long distance.
That's difficult.
That's difficult.
We're young.
We're ambitious.
We have really big ideas of...
And you're very young.
Yeah.
And I would say pretty emotionally unevolved at this point in terms of like haven't gone to therapy.
I haven't diagnosed the fact that I have depression and need to treat this.
None of this has happened yet.
So we're trying to work this out with our arms and our legs tied behind our backs.
And yet still more communicative than, like, any relationship I had been in before.
Yeah, still better, but we're still operating at a C+, essentially.
I think a lot of the fighting early on was, I think, on me, because i'm so deeply smitten with katie.
I see my future there.
I'm terrified that um, i'm not going to be able to be a healthy, successful human being.
So how can i possibly be in a relationship with the the, probably the right person for me, at a time when i'm just not there, and that created an energy that was so maddening.
I mean, I'm projecting, but we've talked about this.
So maddening for Katie.
Yeah.
That was just like, on Tuesday, I'm your everything.
And then on Wednesday morning you wake up and like you're terrified of this, and tell me oh, I need to go on tour with my band because I need to figure this thing out.
Or I need to, you know, write the next great American independent film.
Right.
And so that was confusing.
Tell me how that was.
I mean, what was going through your mind?
It didn't feel great.
Yeah.
I come from like a really traditional family.
I'm the youngest of four.
My sisters got married when they were 21 and 24.
Whoa.
And I was like 23 with this guy who like, maybe loved me more than anything in the whole world, but maybe also wasn't ready for this and didn't want it day to day.
And so I was like, what am I doing?
I'm wasting my youth.
Yes.
And like – and I will also say like I think –
That, if you look at the trajectory of our relationship, the codependency was there almost from the beginning.
That was early times, if you ask anyone around us, a very unhealthy dynamic.
I was going to ask about what friends and family would think addicted to each other in a way of like part of it it was because we were long distance, but when we were together it was like we had to like physically be touching all the time and talking and kissing and like Wait, really.
I have friends like that, and it's pretty annoying.
We were insufferable.
Let's be honest.
It was awful, but we didn't feel it or know it or see it at the time.
You want to tell her about the airport?
Oh, my God.
I would love to know about the airport.
We were catching a flight somewhere together and we weren't separating.
It's not like we were saying goodbye.
We were like just had some downtime and we're full blown making out in one of this. seats.
I didn't even register that we were making out.
I thought it was just like hanging out.
We were like at a gate, like deep in it.
I want to be super clear.
You were on the same flight.
We were going, we were traveling together.
We're at the gate waiting to get on.
Totally, where your seats are ostensibly next to each other.
Next to each other.
So it's like This is not in fear of separation.
No, this was like, I just could not, like, I wanted to inhale him at all times.
And so I did.
It's both of those things, yeah.
It's gross.
But someone walked.
A security guy walked up to us and he goes would you kids like to find a more private area?
That was a real moment for us.
And what did you say?
Oh, my God.
And then you guys go to a bathroom and just continue.
That was the first moment we realized that this could be a problem.
Stay with us.
Is there a specific story that sticks out to you about a conflict that you had, probably when you were living apart?
Hmm.
One time at a concert, he was at like an indie rock show.
And I was back in L.A.
He was at a show here in Brooklyn.
And he called me and he was so excited because Bjork was there.
And like two people in front of him in line.
And I got excited.
I was so jealous, like in a rage, in a rage.
I was like, what are you doing?
Like, I was like, what are you going to talk?
Are you going to talk to her?
Oh, you're going to talk to, oh, you should go.
You know what?
You should totally go do it.
Go talk to her.
Go date her.
You should.
And he was like, why are you crazy?
Because in my mind, he was everything.
And I was like, obviously she's going to fall in love with him if she meets him.
Of course.
Like, he's the easiest person to fall in love with.
Look at those sideburns.
That is so sweet because I thought it's like it wasn't even that you were jealous of her.
It was more so like, I love you so much.
You're so magnetic.
Yeah.
If she even gets in your presence.
If she has has the opportunity to meet you, she's gonna fall in love with you and she's Bjork like you're gonna fall in love with her too.
I can't sing like that.
My hair isn't cool like I knew I wasn't her wow, and I was like oh, this is terrible.
If you meet her, but you know what, you should just Fine.
I'm not mad.
I'm not mad.
Go meet her.
Good.
I hope you guys are having so much fun.
Tell me how you go from this kind of whiplashy, volatile connection.
I mean now, we started this conversation off by saying you're incredibly codependent, which we will circle back to.
How did you decide?
Was there a breaking point?
Was there like a...
I think that this is my like- Maybe a breaking down?
This is my dime store analysis of it.
Is that in this sort of like swirling, whirling soup of like we love each other so much, we can't stop fighting.
Holy shit, what is this?
There was a forced level of honesty that was beyond what we were emotionally prepared to share and receive, and so we grew up together creating a new language that we didn't know how to use.
We didn't see our parents use.
And then we would get in fights, but then we kept showing back up the next morning.
And so we were revealing these awful things and awful sides about each other.
And then we kept saying, I love you the next day.
But I'm still here.
And we started to build this bedrock of.
I think subconsciously, oh my God, this person is still here and they know all of this.
Really ugly scary shit about me.
And that, to me, is the seeds of what I think led to this beautiful or terrible, whatever you want to call it codependency that we have now, which is this very firm belief that, like no one will ever be able to know me or understand me and love me the way that Katie does,
That's me sort of jumping far ahead into these seats now for a moment.
But it was a very long road.
This ability to be so open, that was really present from the beginning of your relationship.
Now, how long have you been married?
It'll be 20 years in August.
Oh, my gosh.
Congratulations.
Yeah.
We've been together for almost 25.
Wow.
Yeah.
How does that show up now?
What are the ways that those patterns you established in the beginning are still a part of your everyday?
If they are, maybe they look a little different.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a really good question.
I mean, I don't think the patterns look different.
The patterns look like...
I'm having a really hard time with X, Y and Z And I feel like it's me, but I worry that you think it's you.
And so like, let's talk about that.
Like.
Those are things that like feel like accomplishments on our side, but it is because of the patterns that we established very early on of like.
I know I'm not going to scare you away.
And I know you're, I can say something without your ego coming in.
Or if it does come in, I know you will work on it and come back to me.
I think that's a good point, because I think like I don't want us to come across sounding like we don't still like fight, basically.
Sure, sure.
And we step in shit all the time.
We do because new things are constantly coming up and particularly we have, you know, two kids, 18 and 14.
Wow.
Two daughters.
And you work together.
And we work together and we sleep next to each other.
And I keep rescuing dogs.
And Katie keeps rescuing these fucking dogs.
I developed this habit of rescuing dogs.
It's a real issue in our marriage.
That is maybe our biggest conflict right now.
Actually, we're not the first couple I've talked to where pets are.
All of these dogs.
Yeah.
We spend a lot of time together.
I was going to say, are you constantly in touch?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We spend a lot of time together.
We're very, sounds gross to say, but we're very like intimate.
There's like a lot of, there's a lot of like hugs.
We're just fucking all the time.
When I see a couple that's at the airport gate, absolutely locked down.
We burn that out in our 20s and 30s.
We're so tired.
That's so funny.
We're not doing that at all, because our bedroom is right off of the kitchen and the kids are just everywhere.
Walking in all the time.
But the intimacy is like, how does it show up then?
We are still very...
Very affectionate and very loving.
And, like, we do love to share meals together in the middle of the day or, like, go on walks.
And it's like dumb shit.
We play music in the kitchen and we dance and we kiss a lot and we hold hands a lot when we walk.
Do your kids comment on that?
Yes, they do.
They're sort of comfortable with it because they have grown up with it.
But then when they got out into the world and saw that other parents aren't like that, they were like, Oh yeah.
Yeah.
For a long time, I think they thought everyone else was weird.
And now I think they think we're weird.
So that's where we're at.
Can I know, like, what do you feel like you need the other person to do?
Like, what's something that you feel like you couldn't do on your own?
That's really interesting.
The first thing that comes to my mind when you say that is that, I really believe this.
I don't know that I would have made it if I had not met Katie.
I think that the nature of what I was dealing with and the depths of my depression and what she brought to me in terms of the ability to bring out this goofiness that I had inside of me,
You guys are so goofy.
I can't believe there was ever a time when you were not being goofy.
Dude, it was gone.
It was gone.
He was so cool when I met him.
You know, he was wearing, like, he was, like, Greenpoint in 03.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, I was in third grade, but I can imagine.
But you remember those ding-dongs walking around with those skinny dickies.
Ding-dongs.
In fact, I am worried that this whole conversation is going to give women who are dating sort of deadbeat boyfriends and bands a false hope.
So I'll just say that.
They're not all that.
They're not all men.
I made it up.
Ladies, not all men.
You know what I'm saying?
Not all men.
You joke about being cool, but I was depressed.
I mean, that's just really what we're dealing with.
So that to me that is like the biggest intense need I have for Katie and this feeling that I have to put a finer point on this codependency, which is like here's some negative things about it okay.
Yeah, good.
That was my next thing.
I go to New York for a few days and I have rescue dogs and I have kids and I have a company and I have a lot of people that rely on me.
Mm-hmm.
And I should just be in full glee and elation to be free and do whatever I want, make whatever decision I want for food at my whim.
And after 36 hours of that, an ache starts to form.
And it's really hard to be away from Katie.
And I can't exactly tell you why, but I think that these 25 years, all this stuff we have built, how I relate to her, and it just it doesn't work.
The way I would like it to be able to.
That's the it there.
You.
It doesn't work.
Life doesn't work.
Life doesn't work.
So I'm not an idiot.
I know that I can't have the beautiful codependent thing that I have with Katie and just be able to easily eject out of that and function perfectly on the other side.
I want it.
I choose it.
But it's not free.
We'll be right back.
Thank you.
Can I turn it to you and say, how do you feel like you need Mark?
And is there – because that's what I want to transition to too is like we're painting a – it's not all rosy, but a really beautiful picture.
But there are ways in which you can lose yourself.
Sure.
I think, honestly, I'm like the complete opposite of him, where he saw in me –
A depth and intelligence that no one else really saw.
I'm the youngest of four.
I was a cheerleader.
I was Miss Maine Teen.
Miss Maine Teen?
That's its own podcast.
Hold on.
Hold on. runner up Miss Teen USA motherfucker.
So I was like, with no training and no nothing.
She was this girl from a town of 300 people, a lobster town in Maine.
Wow.
And they're like, we need somebody.
And they threw her in, didn't know what the fuck she was doing.
What was your talent?
There was, thank God, USA doesn't do a talent.
That's Miss America.
Oh, sorry.
Okay.
My talent, I won the swimsuit competition.
That was my talent.
And I was cute.
And everyone's like, oh, she's so cute.
And that was kind of my identity until I met Mark.
And he looked at me and he was like, no, you're so much more.
You're so smart.
You're really talented.
And you have depth and, you know, you're interesting.
And it changed me.
And no one saw me like that.
And I didn't see myself like that.
And you know he was the one who first looked at me and was like you know.
I said after we had our first kid I was like I miss being in movies.
Like, will you please like write something for me?
And he was like, write something for yourself.
Do it.
You have the stories.
I did write a movie about a woman who cheats on her husband.
Yes, you did it.
I didn't sort of mean that.
If you're going to make me do the work, I'm going to do the work, you know.
But it was that that really, you know, I've never...
No one believed in me like he believed in me and still to this day believes in me.
Like no one believes in me more than Mark does.
And I don't believe in myself as much as Mark does.
That is like the scary side of codependency for me, where I'm like I guess I should probably get to that point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I think a therapist would be like, you walk into a general therapist room, they'd be like, love.
This is my therapist voice, by the way.
Love is such, this wonderful thing where you can join forces with someone and know that you can stand on the precipice of life together and enjoy it.
But also, if you have to stand alone, that's okay, too.
Yeah.
And that last part is what I'm missing.
Yeah.
This is what I was going to say is like, I'm really grateful for you two for being so open.
It's very instructive.
I feel like I'm learning a lot.
And we're also talking about this thing and you're hinting at it.
Where it's like to become so enmeshed with another person, you can lose.
It's like you're both seeing these things in each other that no one else sees, which is electric and beautiful and connective.
But then there is a way in which you lose your sense of individuation.
I mean, you cease to sort of become an individual.
And I guess what are the ways that you try to or you do maintain your sense of self as individuals?
Or is that still something you're struggling with?
I have a pretty good little system, I think, which is that I love hiking and I love backpacking and I mostly do that alone.
I'm going to go out and join the herd on the PCT for a couple of days.
That being said, he's invited me a thousand times.
I don't want to go.
By the way, that is an excellent point.
You definitely wanted it to be something we did together.
That is completely sweet.
You're like, I'm striking out on my own manifest destiny.
You know what?
I don't need anybody out here.
Katie, do you want to come?
No?
Okay, I'll go.
That is so cute and completely undermining your point.
But proving it.
But you tried, yeah.
But proving it at the same time.
But he also has realized he can do it by himself.
And that is gross.
What's a specific thing that you do?
Okay, so what I realized I love is going to dinner and a show by myself.
I love sitting at a bar.
I love ordering a cocktail.
Oh, you bring that book, too.
I bring a book.
You bring that book.
And I like, all of a sudden, I'm like Carrie Bradshaw, just eating by herself.
And it is, and I love going to a show by myself.
Can I also just ever so slightly undermine, which is that... You're like there, but you're quiet.
You're like at a different table.
Which is, you know, for better or for worse.
You always text me or call me during these moments to share it with me.
Well, yeah, because I look cute.
I don't want to waste it.
That is so – oh, God.
I love that.
There still is this thread of – and I don't know.
Maybe we're using the word codependency to your point.
Maybe it's not – Maybe we don't understand.
Is there – maybe.
Finish your sentence.
Maybe we don't understand.
Like maybe – I don't know.
Are we going to make up a word right now for where we are?
Yeah.
That was my question.
In the rebranding.
Is there a new word?
I'm going to call it englobulation because it is confusing where I begin and where Katie ends to a certain point.
But the good news is with englobulation, it's just a big thing of goo.
It sounds sweet.
So gross.
Well, hold on a second.
Let me finish.
Okay.
It's going to be great.
Then you pull it apart like slime, you know, and you're like, oh, great.
So now there's two and we're individual.
But the problem is there's a bunch of pink and the blue and there's a bunch of blue and the pink and you can't really separate them.
It's mostly me over there, but I got a bunch of the other stuff.
Or like mozzarella and a pizza.
In globulation, how are you feeling about that word?
I think it's gross.
Okay.
I would agree with you.
If we're talking about branding, it's a little tough.
I don't know what the word is, but I've always said this thing, and it's just the way I see couples.
Yeah.
And I think couples are like trees that grow in a forest, right?
And sometimes trees grow completely parallel and they're super healthy and it's amazing.
Sometimes trees grow together and they wind around each other and they help bring each other to the sun, or one strangles the other, one right.
And then sometimes two trees grow in two separate directions and fall over.
Like, that is how I look at it.
So who are we?
We think we're—I'm growing to the sun.
I think we've wound around each other and we bring each other to the sun.
Is there any strangulation?
No, I don't feel it.
Yeah.
I think I probably strangled you in the beginning.
Yeah.
You strangled me.
What are we going to do?
No, no.
I think that I personally feel like there is some strangulation inherent in being that intimate and that close.
We've also chosen it.
I mean, it sounds we're just kind of like, you know, using words at this point.
But I think that.
That's what speaking is.
Let me rephrase.
I think we're getting into semantics a little bit with this.
But to me to be so inherently enmeshed like this, to compromise so much to make this relationship work for not only you and me, for the kids and everything like that, that involves a couple of your limbs getting a little choked off.
Sure.
But for the greater good.
Yeah, it's for the greater good.
It feels like you're still growing to the sun, I guess.
It's necessary strangulation.
But I think we would be dishonest to say that there aren't moments where at least I can say this, and maybe you disagree, where you know, Every now and then I question like wow, in order to be in this family, in this marriage, everything that I do, this is quite a bit of compromise.
Am I moving too far from some core tenets of myself?
Should I be careful to protect those things?
This is maybe where we're different, because I look at it and I'm like I am a way better version of myself than I could have ever predicted.
Like I had, I think, much lower expectations of who I was going to be.
Oh.
But I think, like, Mark, I think might have had much higher expectations is what it sounds like.
But I had a way, I like sort of had an idea of who I was and who I was told and I was.
And I think I had a different idea of what it was all going to look like, what marriage was going to look like and family and parenting and everything.
And I sort of surpassed those things in a way that surprised me and excites me and I'm very proud of.
I very rarely ever say, oh gosh, have I lost, I am.
You're like, those branches have died, but you're not worried about it, is what you're saying.
No, I mean, because I like the tree that's, it's like bonsai.
I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah, I like it.
It is interesting because we are we're far in the metaphor now.
But the thing I want to zoom out and say is I am seeing this communication and practice where actually the thing you said is it's pretty heavy.
It's like for the good of the family.
There's lots of compromises and sacrifices both of you have had to make.
I said at some point that it's very instructive to me hearing you two speak.
I am currently dating.
I'm looking, A lot of my brain is consumed with just the question of how am I going to find this person?
And when I hear you guys talk, it's like you so found the person.
And then when you do that...
All of these other questions and fears.
It's only the beginning of the questions.
I know.
I guess one of my final questions to you is like, so why is it worth it?
If all of these other fears come up, right, when you find the one, why?
What do I have to look forward to?
Well, it's 100% worth it.
For me, the reason it's worth it is because I constantly feel like my brain is ping-ponging around space looking for meaning about why I'm here.
When you have someone that you deeply love and deeply understands you and loves you, it's pretty much the only centering force that makes life truly meaningful in the quotidian daily living.
And here's what I would say as you're on the hunt, right?
I can only speak from my own experience.
And the experience I have is that Katie opened the back door of that car and there was something about the way she was, the way she smelled, the way she looked.
It was just...
That was it right there.
And then everything else was a decision and work.
Everything else from there.
And so, you know, I love this old adage of like, there are no... really right or wrong decisions.
There's a decision and then you make it right.
And while that isn't a perfect one-to-one analogy for relationships, everything after that big bang that happened with us I shouldn't have said bang.
That really sounds like something else.
By the way, did not happen that night.
Did not happen right away.
It happened the next night.
She's like 48 hours.
You go, wait.
Make him work for it.
Everything beyond that initial spark, I should say, really has been a growing together, a concerted effort of like making that stuff work and making it the right decision.
And I will say it is 100 worth it because, like I was saying earlier, to be seen in a way you didn't know was possible and to unlock something in you because of the way this person sees you is what a gift.
To see me better than I saw myself.
And...
It's so centering having someone who just loves you.
Like, you can all, it is just your touchstone.
You just come back to it and you know everything's going to be okay.
It's your fence in the storm that you know, as cows are flying by you, you have the post that like holds you.
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah, I know.
The most definitive way I could say it.
This is going to sound kind of stupid, but we were on the subway last night coming home from a magic hour screening and it was a little bit delayed and we were a little tired and just that moment where you just kind of want to get in bed.
Huge dude farted.
And it was awful.
It was bad.
Hey, welcome to New York.
It was bad.
It was bad.
It was bad.
Wow.
Yeah, I'm dead.
That sounds really bad.
But for some reason we were crowded on the subway together, so we were experiencing that nice little intimacy we have of having our arms around each other.
I was talking about how excited I was to get back in the bed, because when we go to sleep I like to put the top of my foot underneath the bottom of Katie's foot.
And it's very comforting to me.
And she doesn't like it.
And I end up, like, chasing her foot all around the bed.
I hate it so much.
I know.
She hates it.
But you don't.
I can see it.
The foot.
Yes.
You don't hate it because you would be very sad if that foot wasn't chasing you around the bed.
I wouldn't miss it so much.
And we, just in the middle of that huge man fart delayed on the subway, we're just fucking cracking up in our own little shared story that only 25 years of being together can create.
That little fiefdom of our love, that is everything to me.
And I don't know how to get that anywhere else.
Wow, I think we have to end it there.
Katie Mark, thank you so much for this conversation.
It was truly a blast.
The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis.
It was edited by Lynn Levy.
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto, Marion Lozano, and Dan Powell.
Dan also composed our theme music.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
Special thanks to Stella Bugbee.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
