Love now and always.
The love was stronger than anything.
And I love you more than anything.
There's still love.
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
This week we wanted to bring you one of our favorite episodes from last year, because we have a wonderful little update to share with you.
It's a conversation I had with a pair of newlyweds, Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone.
Now, a lot of the times, conversations on our show come from the Modern Love column.
But we actually first heard about Jacob and Samantha in the Vows section of the paper.
Right away, the details of their wedding stood out.
Like, for example, the song Jacob chose to walk down the aisle to.
I wanted to come down to the Phantom of the Opera.
There's this moment, this woman just screams, and it's like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.
And I was like, that's what needs to happen as I appear in a mask.
And then Samantha also wanted to put her own spin on the wedding.
I love Titanic.
There was a point where I wanted to have a sinking Titanic on top of our wedding cake, but my mother and the wedding planner said no, you want to have an event where thousands of people died on your wedding day.
And I was like, I mean, it's also like the most beautiful love story.
Clearly their tastes are aligned, but they're actually an unlikely pair because Jacob is gay and Samantha is straight.
A lot of people don't understand their relationship, but they describe their connection as romantic and special.
They call it a soul tie.
When you are with the right person.
This thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond.
And I think if people just did look for the partners that made them feel secure in that way I don't know.
I think that it's like the secret to love.
Samantha and Jacob have been together for over seven years now.
But I wanted to know, what does their relationship mean for their individual identities?
And what did it take for them to come together in a marriage?
Stay with us.
Okay, Jacob and Samantha, I gotta know how the two of you met.
We met at a callback for the musical Fiddler on the Roof.
And so we both were sticking around for a part.
And they bring the part in for Fruma Sarah, who is this ghost in a nightmare sequence.
And it's just like dead silent.
And then I just hear this...
Through the door.
And I'm like, whoa, who was that?
And what person could be that ballsy?
This person literally didn't give a fuck.
And I was enamored.
It was me.
And I like immediately knew that was her.
I just had.
How did you know?
I don't know.
I just had this like laser vision.
I look like a cackler.
Yeah.
And I just ran up and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy.
And it was kind of like a diva meeting a fan at that moment.
Like she was like, you know, thank you.
I needed just this like high five to let me know that like I feel good about this.
So it was amazing to have this like reiteration that, OK, like you did a good job.
Samantha, did your connection with Jacob feel like anything other than friendship?
It definitely felt sacred and it felt like something that I had never experienced with anyone before.
But it was also confusing because I knew that Jacob was gay.
So I was like, okay, like I'm feeling like this like connection of that.
No.
Like that's the best way I can describe it.
I can't even put it into words.
I can only put it into that sound.
And but it was confusing because I'm like, well, he's gay.
So can it be that?
But it felt like that.
Yeah.
Jacob, how would you have described your sexuality at the time?
That was interesting.
Internally, I knew I was gay.
And I shared that with select people who I felt comfortable with.
There was still... I had not shared that with my family yet.
And there was some avoidance and some fear of coming out.
And there were certain people that I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with.
So I kind of just... kept quiet about things most of the time.
But somebody like Samantha, who was my close friend, I would confide that in.
And so it was.
Yeah, there was a lot of sort of inner turmoil with that, having not fully come out to everyone yet and living the the truth.
Yet she comes in and like adds to the confusion, because i'm just like now, wait a minute.
Now i'm like like this person, it's weird, like this connection is unique and maybe it does go beyond just friendship.
How were you sort of processing this friendship at the time?
You know, the first indication that something was different.
I remember I think it was like the second or third time we hung out and we went to a restaurant together.
And I remember...
Like the excitement of getting ready and then going and like picking her up.
And I was like, God, this feels like a date.
Like this feels the way somebody would be like giddy about going on a date with somebody.
And there was like this weird nervousness in me and it was throwing me for a loop.
But I never considered saying something or taking it anywhere further, because I didn't want to disrupt what was going on.
Were you attracted to Samantha?
I was attracted to Samantha.
But as I talk about the way and I continue to talk about the way our attraction works, it's such a soul connection.
And it's such an attraction to who she is and the person that she is and her entity.
And it's not in that sort of almost lustful sense.
It's not in that the body parts or the way i'm attracted to men feels very different than the way i am attracted to samantha, and that hers is a much.
It's a very deep well, and the way i'm attracted to men feels very shallow and surface.
Samantha, when you and Jacob were going on this maybe date, maybe not a date did you feel that same, like nervous fizzy, giddiness?
Yeah, I did.
And, I mean, like, he paid for my food.
And it did kind of feel like it had this like special thing about it, but like it felt like I was like kind of being courted, but also I'm like okay, I'm being courted by this, this friend, this homo, this homo.
I mean I want to ask like For you Samantha, like you're starting to feel what you would consider like romantic feelings towards Jacob at this time.
Is that true to say?
Yeah, I think I was feeling these feelings, but I was also very guarded and really taking it slow with this.
And then, of course, you add the gay element to it and I'm like okay, this can't be that.
But like this is something and I guess I'm just going.
I knew that it was so special that I didn't want to mess anything up and I was okay with having to be patient and seeing how it played out.
I don't know, did these feelings that were building for Jacob start to feel like you couldn't ignore them, like you kind of had to act on them?
About 18 months into our friendship, I decided to text Jacob to ask if he had more feelings than just a friendship for me.
How did you decide to do that approach?
What was your method of sort of opening up this conversation that I would say both of you had been pretty terrified to begin.
You know, to look this thing in the face.
What did you do, Samantha?
I literally just sent him a text message, which is probably, like in theory, the worst way to do it.
I was at a place where I was just like, I need to cleanse the uncertainty from my life.
Whatever that means, even if he doesn't feel more feelings...
For me then, a friend, you know, at least it's out there and I have an answer and I don't have to live with this anymore.
I was just like, it needs to be purged from my being.
But we knew each other so well that I was like OK, this he's going to just understand what I'm trying to say here.
So I texted him and I was like, do you ever feel more than just a friend for me?
Jacob, I want to switch to you right now.
What were you doing when you got Samantha's text, and how did you react?
I remember looking at it, and two very distinct feelings happened.
One was, of course.
I feel this way and I can't believe she's taking the initiative to say it and being bold enough to say it after we've both been beating around the bush for 18 months.
And the other was immense fear that this was going to ruin our friendship because I wasn't going to be capable of having a relationship with her.
And then I sent her a text back saying, what do you mean?
Which was the stupidest thing.
And I was like, oh, fuck.
That was like me just stalling.
And then like two minutes later, I'm like, what did I just say?
Like, that's so dumb.
And so then I said, of course, I feel more for you than a friend.
And I'm willing to try and see where this goes.
I mean, what was your biggest holdup?
I'd imagine there was maybe some fear around whether you could perform physically or sexually.
I think I just knew that that was going to be a part of it, and that's where I felt I was inadequate or where this thing was gonna fail.
Because I knew every other aspect of it would work.
I mean, we can hang out for umpteen hours and do everything else, but that was the one kink in the hose.
That first meeting after these text exchange, like, tell me, did you explicitly acknowledge it?
What were the conversations that you had when you met up in person for the first time after all of this?
It was like an elephant in the room that like, okay, now we're going to try it this way.
But we never said another word.
Yeah, it was like we just went on existing the way we would have before I had approached him.
She was living with a friend at the time.
And we were up chatting till late with the friend and hanging out.
And then... she had her own room there.
And so we just went in.
I just, we had platonically slept in the same bed many times.
So we were just like, okay, we're like going to go to bed.
Retire.
Yeah.
And it just, it just happened that way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even when, like the door was closed and you guys were like in the same bedroom together and you didn't say, like you didn't talk about the sort of changed nature of the relationship.
No.
I think we were just laying there watching, like, a Marx Brothers movie.
I think so.
And I think I just, like, leaned over and kissed you.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I think it just... Went from there.
Yeah, it got raunchy from there.
I mean, how did that feel, that first kiss?
The first thing was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is actually happening.
But then it felt like...
Like, so what were we waiting for?
Why did we wait 18 months to come to this very easy, amazing place where, I mean, it didn't feel awkward?
It didn't feel, like, uncomfortable.
It just felt like we'd always kind of fit together.
Yeah.
Wow.
Which I'd never felt before.
Yeah.
That fear, I mean, all of that just slipped away in that moment.
And it was just like normal and it felt like there's no pressure here if something doesn't happen.
Like, it was just because it was us and our relationship.
Was there relief?
There'd been so much confusion about your relationship.
Was there relief after this night?
Oh, yeah.
Totally.
Just the fact that it could successfully work was major relief.
Now down the road in our relationship, things started to get more— After that honeymoon period there became doubts and uncertainties and fears that crept back in.
Cause I think just the longevity of it and the sort of okay, we're moving to this phase where we live together and like we're really creating a life together imposed a new set of like.
Is this something maintainable?
Is this something that can really last a lifetime?
And and for i think samantha has said that it she was worried she was taking me away from.
You know, being with a man and i was very resolved up with samantha but there was always that fear that i would wouldn't be able to just successfully go through the boxes of like, getting married and having a child and all those things that come with a straight relationship Like my world was shook.
After the break, Jacob tries to navigate the challenges of wanting to come out of the closet while in a relationship with a straight woman.
That's coming up.
So Jacob, after that night that you and Samantha slept together, did it change the way you were thinking about your sexuality?
Were you like, I'm queer, I'm bi?
Like, did this night change your self-assessment?
No, I didn't really reassess myself.
I...
Basically just was like, this is my situation in life.
I'm in this relationship with her and she's my best friend.
And that I still knew my identity to be my identity.
And I think that's where the confusions set in for both of us.
Talk more about that.
Well, I think, like I said, there was a honeymoon period.
And then there was a period where we faced a lot of doubts.
And we're like, how is this working?
How are we maintaining this?
How are you fulfilled by me if I'm a woman from Samantha's angle, I think.
And it was daunting because i didn't have the words for that.
I didn't have the a, i didn't have the verbal tools or skills, because my whole life was like i say i, i'm like, my default is like a brooding marlon brando or james dean, like i just am like no, and and she wants to talk about everything and get it out there.
And i didn't have the words for that.
Yet was that the first time you'd had sex with a woman?
Yes,
I had had, you know, little interactions with women that were unsuccessful, through high school and just when I was trying to figure out my sexuality.
And eventually in college, I got to a point where I realized this is never going to change.
You think, this isn't really me.
I'm not really gay.
I can change this.
This is just some sort of like not a phase, but something that I have, that if I concentrate hard enough, I will change this.
And eventually there gets to be a point where you grow up enough and you go, this just is who I am.
And I don't...
I'm not attracted to women, and that's fine.
And I'm going to just accept that.
But I also was worried about my family accepting it.
I was mostly worried about my dad's side of the family accepting it because it was a very conservative Christian upbringing.
Yeah.
And they had said things.
I mean, I went to a church where the pastor held up a petition to get everybody in the congregation to sign against gay marriage when they were trying to legalize it.
What about your father specifically?
How was he treating you?
You know, growing up he had speculated, and I mean he would drive me to school and I'd be sitting next to him in the car with my portable DVD player watching the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
And he's, like, looking at this and making fun of it and being like...
What is this?
What is this gay shit?
Yeah, literally.
It's like the gayest thing ever.
And I'm like, Dad, this is my favorite thing in the world.
And there were these moments in childhood where I distinctly remember seizing up and him confronting me about it.
And so there were these really definitive moments in my life where I'm like I'm not going to be accepted or be normal or be, you know, the hotshot guy if I'm a gay.
And I wanted to be the hotshot guy and have success and, you know, that was troubling.
I mean Jacob, that's really painful to feel like.
There's this truth that you cannot deny, and you're surrounded by family, by a church, by a community that's telling you that that is the wrong way to be.
And that must have been a really difficult acceptance to reach.
It was a really hard pill to swallow because I think at that point I went into even a darker idea which is just like This isn't going to change, but unless I'm so comfortable with the person, I'm just not going to share anything about myself that way.
So that was hard to just kind of live this closeted life to so many.
Samantha, I want to know from you did the fact that Jacob was closeted to his family make you doubt your relationship with him in any way?
I just...
I mean.
The doubts that I personally had were maybe am I holding Jacob back from living his full happiest potential in life if he's gay.
Because I don't want him to like eventually one day just feel like he's like trapped in this relationship.
And he wasn't a communicator.
So I would try and talk to him about that. these things.
And I don't think it was because Jacob did not feel safe communicating these things with me.
I think Jacob just didn't know that there is a healthy way to talk about hard things with people.
And there are safe spaces and safe people that you can go there with and that it's not going to end up in this disastrous place.
Like that's kind of the point of having a partner in your life.
Can you give me an example maybe, of a conversation that you tried to have during this time and how it went down?
Do you remember a specific moment?
I mean, there were over a hundred of them.
I mean, this was a weekly occurrence of maybe Samantha saying something to me like well, why does your family doesn't know about this dynamic and what do they think, do they?
You know, it just kind of looks, feels like we're living this lie without them knowing you're gay and they feel like just like a normal relationship, which it is.
But that sort of, that dynamic isn't fully being truthful to that side.
And so she kind of probably felt like a beard at that point for my family where it's like I can go home on Christmas and everybody can see me having a normal hetero life.
Or even me just explaining the fact that I have no attraction to women was a major thing.
Because it was just like you know, she'd asked me, she'd asked me like, did I?
Would I find this girl pretty or something?
Either someone we know or someone in public.
And I'm like no, like I can say hey, that girl, you know, takes care of herself, or is fabulous, or does this or that.
But there's no nothing a woman's going to do that's ever going to make me attracted to them.
And that was my way of trying to just understand, because Jacob wasn't like fully talking about his feelings and like and like he hadn't found his groove of communication yet.
So my tactic was like, OK, like, let me see if I can do it through real world examples like.
And that then for me translated into unfortunately, a lot of anger.
I would be it was like explosive, like you know.
She would ask me something and I'd just be like I'm gay, why don't you get?
I'm gay, you know, or like why don't you, how don't you understand this?
And I would take it out in crazy ways.
I had road rage, I would get in arguments with people at stores or anything, because there was just so much bottled up And I think I was worried.
I wanted Jacob to feel like his relationship with his family was not based upon this, like character and this idea that he was showing them.
Because I did, I was worried at one point.
He would then start to feel like well, my dad accepts this idea of who he thinks I am.
Your family Jacob, saw you dating a woman and they did not know the full truth behind your sexuality.
And this led to a lot of confusion and a lot of anger, as you say, on your part.
Can you tell me about how...
You finally told the truth to your family and what that experience was like.
Yeah.
Well, throughout the years, Samantha always said I think you're going to get rid of a lot of this anger if you tell them.
And I was like, oh.
Tell them you're gay.
Yeah.
And I was just like, no, no, no.
Like, that has nothing to do with it.
Like, I don't care what they think or what they know or not know.
And that's between me and you and not them anymore.
And we go to Florida.
Samantha stays in Florida to be with her family.
I come back to L.A. to work.
And on the way back home, I get COVID.
And I got like just a bad fever and chills.
And I'm alone in our apartment.
And it's one of those sicknesses where you're like... wow, like I feel like I could die.
Like it's not that, it wasn't that dire.
But you know you have one of those or you're throwing up or something and you get that feeling.
And all of a sudden I thought, I need to tell my dad about this.
And it's like, wow, what about that?
Because it felt like because why?
I think it was just my brain confronting my life a little bit like it, just in that feeling of like sickness.
My brain confronted maybe some of some things I would regret, or some things that my life were problematic in my life.
And that was that just reared its head was like, you need to tell your dad you're gay.
The next morning, I called him, and I just told him.
And I said, you know, Dad, I have to tell you something.
I'm gay.
I feel I am a gay person and Samantha is my girlfriend, but this is just our relationship and it's different than my sexual preference.
And he was like, okay.
And he was a little taken aback.
And I was like, Dad, you had to have thought that.
I was listening to Cher my entire childhood.
How are you not thinking that?
And he's like, well, I just thought that was the music you liked and stuff.
And there was definitely some shock.
But he actually... was so accepting.
Like, so, so just like, okay.
And it went over almost too easy.
Jacob, when you came out to your father, you also spoke about your relationship with Samantha, which they already knew about.
But I wonder like do you think?
Do you think that because you were in a relationship with a woman, it made it an easier pill to swallow for him?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, I mean, potentially.
I mean, if Samantha didn't exist, let's say, and I just lived my life...
I think I probably would have just been avoidant my whole life.
And Samantha.
One of the many amazing things that have come out of me by being with Samantha and knowing and loving Samantha is the ability to verbalize and confront things and talk about hard things.
And something I'd love to add about Jacob and I will tell you the second.
He got off the phone with his dad.
He calls me and he's like I just told my dad I'm gay.
And it was like a new person was talking to me.
So much of that anger dissipated.
Instantly.
Yeah.
It seemed like the fact of your relationship with Samantha perhaps softened this news for your father.
But then also, what you're saying is that it was only because of your relationship with Samantha that you were even able to deliver this news.
And I guess like, did this heterosexual-seeming relationship offer you some sort of protection?
That
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what the question is.
I'm sorry.
I'm having trouble.
No, I think it totally did.
I mean, I think it was the anchor that allowed me to open up to my family about what was going on inside, because otherwise it just wouldn't have happened.
And Samantha, your doubt that you were, or this feeling, this fear that you had that you were keeping him trapped in a relationship and not letting him explore his sexuality.
What about that fear on your end?
You know, I think, as I have seen the number of ways that Jacob shows up for me and his expression of love and just everything we've been through, I know that it's just deeper than just a sexual preference.
I really think that my...
Once I understood that this is my soulmate and this is my person in life and we have just found ourselves in this dynamic and form in this lifetime, it made me realize okay, this is –, he's not going anywhere.
I'm not certain about a lot of things in life, but I am certain that Jacob is – in this forever.
And so that kind of just went away completely.
Jacob, why is identifying as gay, as someone who is only attracted to men, so important to you?
Right.
And this is, to me, the most important thing and why we talk publicly about our relationships.
The label gay is so important to me because for my mental health, for the years of turmoil that I lived in struggling to come out, and for the true definition of my sexuality, it's the label that fits.
I'm solely attracted to men.
And Samantha being my soulmate is its own star in another galaxy.
And when people say, well, why aren't you bisexual?
Well, bisexual means you're attracted to both.
And I don't feel I'm attracted to both.
I know I'm not attracted to both.
I've never been attracted to a woman and never will be.
And Samantha isn't a woman.
She's a soulmate and a companionship.
You know, I want to ask something that I think... I mean, I don't know.
This whole thing is so vulnerable and sensitive, and I appreciate you guys going there with me.
I'm thinking about, Jacob, how you explained that, you know, to you, Samantha isn't a woman.
She's a soulmate, right?
And that's also how she's in this different plane than physical attraction.
And I guess, Samantha, from you, I want to know, like, does that make you feel...
I don't know, any less sexual or desirable.
Does that make sense to not be seen as sort of a physical, not have that component of physical attraction?
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
If anything, I feel it actually makes me feel more attractive.
The way that I see myself through the way Jacob's eyes look at me is so beautiful.
I never feel more beautiful or secure.
When Jacob looks at me, he's seeing me for me and my being.
Yeah.
I don't have any insecurities about him being gay.
And it is important for me that he has that label, because I know the work and the pain that he went through to get to a place where he could feel so comfortable shouting it from the rooftops.
I know sometimes people comment and they're like, wow, poor Samantha.
I could never be with a man who's not attracted to me.
And I'm like, if only you could see and feel what I feel and how attractive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about how it's really important to you Jacob, as we've discussed, to identify as gay and part of a community that has faced discrimination, has faced violence, has fought hard for its right to exist in this country.
And at the same time, in your relationship, Jacob and Samantha, you will have this ability to move through the world with the benefits of a heterosexual couple, right.
Like having kids relatively easily, walking down the street without fear.
How do you two make sense of that?
You know, I consider that an immense privilege and I don't take that for granted at all, that we are what we are.
We are on the surface in the world.
We're a straight white couple that can just go around the world looking and presenting that way without people having to see the intricacies of what's going on.
And some of the backlash we receive has even come from the queer community, where they think we're trying to threaten that or say other people can have this dynamic and should force it, or something.
And we are in no way, shape or form saying, to seek out a dynamic like this.
We believe we're one in a million that this can work.
So you know, any marginalized community that has something come in that's out of their definition of who they are and what they've had to defend themselves to be in this world, they're gonna feel defensive about it.
And whether it's a straight conservative being like no, I know that getting married to a woman and being a Christian and doing those things like that's the right way.
That's worked for me so well and so many other people.
And a gay person will say no, like I know being with a man and being gay, expressing that that works for me and does so well.
Like we all have these set definitions we're trying to defend so that our own life can feel valid right.
And we're not trying to threaten anybody.
We're trying to add to the conversation and say, we're here too, you know.
What do you want people to understand about your relationship?
I think...
In the most simplest terms, it's just a true love story of two people who fell in love with one another for all of the right reasons.
This love happened.
It really was kind of a love at first sight thing.
Yeah.
It should be easy.
The origins of it all should be easy.
If there's ever any work involved, it's just the natural work involved in a relationship.
But when you know, you know.
And we want people to know that love just can be that simple.
Yeah.
And I think just for me, it's Being open and honest about your feelings is always the right answer.
And that will guide you to peace and tranquility and stable relationships and all of that thing that we're all hoping to attain.
And me finding my truth and being able to speak it, which was really the issue.
It wasn't finding it, it was being able to talk about.
It gave me peace.
And don't worry about the rejection.
Jacob and Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your love story with us.
I'm really grateful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right, here is that update we promised at the top of the show.
Almost a year after they got married, Samantha and Jacob had a baby.
We asked them how things were going, and they told us that having a four-month-old son has strengthened their bond in an even deeper way and that he's the perfect token of their love story.
Plus, they said they're constantly playing him soundtracks of their favorite Broadway musicals.
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Dana Sland, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Emily Lang.
It was edited by Jen Poyant.
Production management by Christina Josa, and our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto.
Dan Powell composed our theme music.
Special thanks to Jenny Block and Shawna Alexander.
The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
