Welcome to this masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1700 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated a couple of powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you'll see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
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Dave, thanks for joining us today.
Hey Kwame, good to be back.
Thanks so much for the invitation.
Yeah, man, it's my pleasure.
It's always great having you on the show.
So for those of you who don't remember, let's get an introduction.
So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Sure.
Well, thanks.
I am the host of a podcast called Coaching for Leaders.
My work is helping leaders discover wisdom through Insightful conversations.
And so we do that through the podcast.
I also do that through the Coaching for Leaders Academy to help leaders make movement in the direction that's going to serve their organizations, it's going to serve their employees and ultimately, it's going to serve them well in their careers too.
Fantastic.
And if you haven't checked out that podcast, make sure you check that out.
It is always one of the top podcasts out there.
So kudos to you, Dave.
You are the podcaster I want to be.
Well, part of the reason that we've had some wonderful response from the show is you've been on the show before three or four times now, I think.
And I always hear just such wonderful responses from our audience when you're on.
And the thing that I appreciate about your work so much is just how practical you make it.
And I think we're going to dive in on that a lot today, on just some of the practical things we can all do in influencing and managing up, because these are things that we all know we need to do a better job at, or at least to do a somewhat good job at.
A lot of times we don't get a lot of advice or training in certainly our academic work, but even within organizations, on how to do this well.
It's kind of awkward to ask your boss, can you teach me how to manage up better?
So we're going to do a little bit of that today.
See if we can dive in a bit.
Fantastic.
Well, great.
So yeah, the three things we're going to talk about today.
First, managing up.
For those who don't know, let's discuss what it is.
And then how do we do it?
And then we're going to end up with how do we do it online?
How do we do this in a remote world?
So Tell us what we need to know about managing up.
Well, managing up is a term that we have all used in the industry.
In the service of, hey, how do I get my boss to do what I want my boss to do, right?
And that's how we often think about it.
And to the earlier point, it is a bit awkward because we are trying to influence the behavior of the person that ultimately we work for.
And so that requires us to tread carefully and to think about mindset a bunch.
And one of the things hopefully we'll talk a bunch about is the mindset around this, because I think mindset makes a big difference on how you approach this conversation and how you attempt to affect change.
I also want to say this Kwame, if I may, that managing up is not about changing your boss or whoever you're trying to manage up to.
You know I I don't know about you, but I have a hard enough time changing my own behavior and trying to change someone else's behavior.
If you've ever tried to do that and I think we all have in marriages with kids it's really challenging to do.
And in the workplace, it's even harder.
And it's even harder when it's the person you work for.
And so I think that our mindset should not be hey, I am trying to change my boss's behavior or change something about them.
My mindset should instead be, how do I serve my customer?
And I can say more about that in just a bit.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And it makes sense.
And I know our listeners are not going to be surprised hearing it's about mindset, because a lot of times it comes down to that.
And just shifting your mindset can lead to the necessary behavior change before you even talk about change strategy or tactics or anything like that.
And I think that's a really interesting perspective that you just introduced, thinking about your clients.
Can you tell us more about that too?
Yeah, my friend Tom Henschel, who is the host of a show called The Look and Sound of Leadership.
It's one of my favorite leadership shows and he's a talented executive coach out here in Southern California.
Tom has been on my show a number of times and he has made the point that your boss is your biggest customer.
And that you're really there to be able to serve your customer in what your customer needs in order to serve the organization well.
And I think that's a really helpful.
That's been a very helpful mindset for me and been very helpful for a lot of the leaders in our academy of thinking about Okay, here's my customer.
My customer is asking for something, but I'm also here to serve my customer and help them to do well.
And I think one of the parts of mindset that's really important for me to think of when I'm trying to influence someone who has more power in the organization is how is that person being measured for their success, their results within the organization?
And I think, to start from a mindset standpoint is I'm not here because I'm trying to, I'm not making this request because I'm trying to change my boss.
It's not about me.
Feeling comfortable getting things my way.
It's about how do I influence this person in a way that is good for them, to help them to get the results that they want to get.
And that is ultimately going to serve the organization well.
So thinking about it from the standpoint of I want to serve my customer.
If my boss is one of my most important customers.
What can I do to serve my customer.
Well, and if I do that in their interests, that I'm more likely to have success at being able to influence change and to be able to do it in such a way that's going to be helpful to the organization.
This is great.
And I think it demonstrates one of the issues with the mindset that people often face.
They focus on their own needs and their own frustrations.
And they say this boss isn't doing what they need to be doing.
And that's what needs to change.
Instead, what you're suggesting is you look at it from their perspective what they need and what they want, what they're trying to accomplish.
And then it becomes a lot easier.
Can I also say that that's super hard to do?
It's really hard.
And you know this, Kwame when you're working with folks who are in heated negotiations, there's large dollar amounts involved or there's big emotions involved, often both.
And it is really, really hard to set aside our own personal emotions when our boss isn't behaving well, right.
A lot of times that's the time we want to manage up is we look at what our boss is doing and something that seems obvious to us like Why is this person micromanaging everything I'm doing?
Or why is this person going all kinds of different directions in every team meeting we have?
Or why is this person jumping in and causing chaos within my team?
Why is my boss doing this that's causing my team to go all different directions?
And we're wasting time and we're getting people upset and causing stress.
And that quite rightfully generates a ton of emotion and frustration.
And it is so easy to walk into a conversation with that person and to bring, even if we don't say it, to bring that emotion into the room.
And to have the conversation framed around emotion and what's not working for me and what's pushing my buttons wrong, and all of that stuff is super real and it's really important for us to be present with it.
And I think when we're having a conversation with our boss.
It is really helpful if we can not discount those emotions that we have, but be able to set them aside in a box for a few minutes and have a conversation that is a learning conversation and a conversation that focuses on the business case, for whatever we're trying to influence.
Yeah, and I think this is a perfect time to transition into that second point.
Let's get deeper into how we actually do it.
And I want to focus in on that distinction between a learning conversation or a probably a venting conversation, where your emotions are starting to take over in a negative way.
So when you say learning conversation, what do you mean by that?
A learning conversation is a conversation where you're coming again with that mindset of okay, I want to serve this person, my boss.
I also want to serve the organization well so they can use their resource as well.
That resource maybe is me, maybe it's my team.
Maybe it's the resources within the organization, whatever it is, right?
And so the mindset shift here is that's where I want to enter this conversation.
I don't want to enter it from a place of all the frustration that I'm feeling.
So the place to not start this conversation is to walk in and to say I'm really frustrated when you
And that might be the kind of conversation we would have with a friend or with a spouse or with a child, right.
But I don't think that's helpful for a conversation when we're doing it from a context of the organization.
By the way, some bosses are ready for that kind of a conversation, but a lot are not.
And so if we can frame it, especially when you, as you go up higher in the food chain, if we can frame it for more senior people in the organization.
On, what's the business case for this?
So one of the mindsets is how do I serve my customer?
But then the other mindset is coming in, and when I say having a learning conversation, it's actually coming in with questions and curiosity about something you do not know.
So here would be an example.
Your boss, in fact, this came up in our community this week.
Your boss is is coming in and regularly causing stress to your team.
Let's say you.
Let's say you lead a team of five to 10 people and And you're doing a good job at trying to get people to get work done and provide positive reinforcement and all the good things leaders should do.
But their skip level boss.
Your boss comes in and tends to dive in and micromanage and send people in different directions and cause lots of stress.
And and just generally cause chaos.
And the person who brought this to our conversation this week said I am spending so much time trying to clean up messes that my boss is coming in and causing and and my boss doesn't even realize that they're doing this, but they're coming in and causing all these problems and I'm spending all this time cleaning up the mess.
How do I handle that situation?
So here's what a conversation like that, coming in with the intention of hey, I'm here to serve my customer, right.
Because if it's my boss, it's their team.
We're part of their organization.
We're helping them to achieve results.
And so I think one of the phrases that I really like is, you know, here's something I'm noticing.
And so you can come into a conversation with the boss and say you know, one of the things that I'm noticing is, after we have conversations with the entire team, is people are coming to me with a bunch of questions about changing direction.
And I'm noticing that that's happened a few times recently that people don't seem to have clarity after they're coming out of conversations.
And the business impact of that is we're spending whatever amount of time two or three hours, whatever the metric is of what problem that's causing from a business standpoint and a numbers and a results standpoint.
And then asking a question that you don't know, the answer to which is something like I'm wondering what we might do to help provide clarity, so that they walk out of a situation knowing what's the next step.
And you might just ask that question to them, saying you know, I wonder what we might do or what I can do to help you, to even provide some of that clarity.
And so you're approaching this from a standpoint of curiosity and learning of how can I help my boss to come into a conversation and to communicate their message in a way that is useful for the team so we get the result that everyone wants.
This is great.
I think this is a brilliant approach for essentially negotiating with your boss in that situation.
And the way that you've approached it is so non-threatening and collaborative that it makes it more likely for them to engage and it circumvents most possibilities of defensiveness that you'd experience.
And I think just simply using that approach and that question, you'll probably see Better results, just if you take this small segment of the episode right.
Because I think for a lot of people, the hardest part is starting the conversation, right?
They don't even know where to start, how to approach it, so they don't even broach the subject.
And this approach is so simple but powerful that I think that clarity is going to lead people to actually take action and have these conversations.
You talk about compassionate curiosity all the time, and this is that same mindset that in a situation with your boss of here's wow, here's what I'm noticing.
Here's the business impact.
What could we do?
Or maybe even come with the suggestion of here's here's one thing I see.
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And you're exploring together what could work and what could be different.
And it's possible.
You have that conversation with your boss and they say they offer nothing.
That's helpful, right.
And then, okay, you tried.
You did your best to try to influence change and to help them to think about it through a lens of business results right.
But I think your chances of getting a better result or of hearing something that you didn't already know coming out of that conversation are a lot higher if you approach it from a curiosity standpoint and a how can I help you to meet these numbers.
How can I help you to save time?
How can I help you to get your message across?
If you can do that well, then that is going to increase the percentage of then hearing something that you say oh interesting.
My boss is coming to this conversation with this mindset.
Now let me go either explain that or align to that, or adapt a bit, knowing that this is the way they'd approach it.
I love this.
And now we're in a time where we're doing a lot of this online.
And so let's say, you find yourself in this position where you want to address a situation with your boss, but you're remote.
You haven't seen your boss physically in months.
And so that disconnect can often create a little bit of awkwardness, especially when you're having difficult conversations.
So what changes when we are having these conversations online?
I think it's a lot of the things that change online with many of our conversations, which is it's It's a lot easier in the physical space to hang behind on a meeting for a few minutes or catch someone in the hallway or to, as an adjunct to a regular meeting, say you know.
I just want to ask you a quick question.
You know, here's something I'm noticing.
That's harder online because you have to create the opportunity for that.
So I don't think the conversation is much different.
And, by the way, I don't know if I would, in most situations, set up an entire meeting to talk specifically about the thing you're noticing that's causing a challenge.
I think that that is often helpful as a oh by the way, as part of a conversation.
Here's something I've noticed over the last couple of sessions.
And that way it comes from a place of curiosity.
It's coming from a place of service.
It's coming from a place of you wanting to learn.
So I'm sure there's exceptions to that.
But I think the key is finding a place within an existing conversation that to bring that in.
Whether it's your one-on-one, whether it's a meeting, whether it's a conference call, whatever it is.
And the key is to make the space.
And that's the hard thing in the online environment because we're all used to or at least a lot of us are used to getting to interact informally.
So you may have to make that space intentionally.
And this could be as simple as say you're on a Zoom session and you're having a regular interaction with your boss, and maybe it's a small team of people.
You could say something like, hey, Maria, I have a quick something for you to chat with offline.
Do you have two minutes after the session?
And then you get that two minutes and you say, hey, I just wanted to, I'm curious about something.
Here's something I noticed last week at our meeting.
And I'm noticing this caused this issue.
Hey, I've got a question for you about it.
And it could be that simple.
But the difference here is you really do have to carve out and make the space for it.
And I think you can do that in a way that's hey, could you stick around for a minute or two, or as part of an interaction you're already having, or maybe there's something else that's part of that meeting too, but you're building it around having that interaction and having that learning conversation.
Yeah, I really love this approach because it's so simple, right?
And again, the more simple it is, the simpler it is, the more likely people are going to execute.
But I know there are probably going to be people out there who are skeptical, who are saying well, it can't be that easy.
What if it's harder?
What if it doesn't work out?
So what happens if this simple strategy doesn't work?
What adjustments do we need to make?
Then you do the best you can with what you've got with your boss.
You're not going to change your boss.
You're just not in almost every situation.
And if you push back and you fight to try to change your boss, that is probably not going to go well for you in most situations.
So I think you're better off with a simple, curious learning approach.
It shouldn't be that complicated.
And I don't think in most situations there's always exceptions, of course, but I don't think in most situations it's probably useful to book a half hour meeting with your boss and to say uh, you know, i'm i'm frustrated by some of the things you're doing and i want to sit down and really kind of hammer it out with you of what the things you're doing that are causing issues on my team.
Right, that's not the way to approach your customer.
If i'm serving a client, I'm not going to set up a meeting with them and say I wanna talk through with you all the problems you're causing for me and my organization and how difficult it is to work with you.
Right?
I'm gonna approach that from a here's what's working, here's what's not, here's the issues we're running into and I'm gonna set aside my emotion.
If I'm talking with a client And we're going to address how do we move forward for them to get the results they want.
And that's the same thing I want to do with my boss.
So I think keeping it simple is the best way to go.
The hardest part of this is setting aside your emotions.
And I think that this is where we can really practice that.
Of, you know, being able to think about this through the business lens.
And this is the and I say business Kwame, I'm conscious there are folks in nonprofits and and many kinds of organizations listening, but all of us have things we're trying to achieve and results we're trying to aim for.
And that's the focus of a conversation.
And that's also, by the way, the lens that a lot of senior executives tend to look at things.
They tend to look at things less from the lens of emotion and they tend to look at things more through the lens of numbers and data.
There are, of course, exceptions.
But if you look at the distribution of executives and their personality preferences, in a lot of organizations, the people that are the data people, the thinkers, tend to be a lot of times in the senior roles.
And so when you're running into a tough situation, Managing up or otherwise, being able to meet them where they are, to speak their language, to be able to approach it from the business case, is the place I almost always default to start.
Right.
And really, even if it's not, if the person listening here isn't in the business world, you still come from a world where results matter.
Right.
It's just in the business case.
Oh, it's clear.
Money.
Right.
Pretty easy.
Right.
But other things, there are other outcomes and results that we're going for.
And so the question becomes how does this situation impact impact the results that we're trying to accomplish right?
And as long as you keep it focused on the results, I think it makes it a lot easier for people to accept, especially from the boss's perspective, because the boss wants to meet those goals.
And it's funny.
Now, as the team here at the American Negotiation Institute grows, I'm thinking about them hearing this episode and wondering how they would approach me with their concerns.
And now, from that perspective it makes a lot of sense because I might have some kind of emotional tie to doing something a certain way, not necessarily a strategic tie that is narrowly tailored to meet a specific business outcome.
And sometimes the person who is actually doing the work is in the best position to see it.
And the boss, just because of that distance, they can't see it the way that you do.
And this also speaks to mindset too.
If I see something that my boss doesn't see and it is affecting the results of the organization and by results I mean cost, quality or time.
Those are the three big ones for almost every organization that we are measuring work on, right?
Some version of those three.
If I see a problem there and it's something my boss may be doing that's causing that problem or the organization isn't addressing, and I see it clearly and by me being curious and putting the business case in front of my boss and asking some curious questions to learn how we can address that.
I think that's a responsibility I have. to bring that to the table.
So this isn't even a hey.
I just want to feel better about how my boss is treating me and all those things.
And yeah, that comes along with it from an emotional standpoint.
But I think this is a responsibility that we have in order to serve our boss well.
Now, if they get That information and they see those numbers and they say, it's fine.
That's their call.
They're in charge.
Sorry.
I mean, that's just the nature of organizations and power and bosses, right?
And so then you have to decide like, okay, can I live with that?
And I think most of the time, in most situations outside of ethical things of course, most of us say all right, you know, I can live with that probably.
I just need to adjust my expectations on how I handle this with my boss and my team going forward.
But I think sadly, a lot of people don't ever do that.
Their boss is doing something that is causing pain in the organization.
And by pain I mean not only emotional pain for people, but it's causing pain, as in it's not allowing the team, the organization to perform well on one of those three measures.
And they don't know it.
They don't see it because they've got a blind spot for whatever reason, or they're not equipped to handle that, or whatever.
I think we have a responsibility to get that on their radar screen.
And if they don't do something, they don't do something.
But this is a good way that helps to get that on the table and have a conversation about it.
I love this.
Dave, this has been fantastic.
And I know the listeners got a lot out of this.
And listeners, you're probably saying to yourself, my goodness, don't end the episode.
Where can I get more information?
Well, it's good that you have a podcast, Dave.
So can you tell them about the podcast and your academy too?
Well, thank you for the kind words.
Kwame.
If folks want to find out more, coachingforleaderscom is the best place to go, or just search for Coaching for Leaders on whatever podcast app you use.
And we air every single Monday and have for 10 years now.
Fantastic.
Dave, thank you again for coming on, my friend.
We appreciate it.
The pleasure is mine.
Thanks for having me.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Catherine, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
It is my pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yep.
Civility Partners has been in business for 14 years.
I'm very proud of that, realizing we're creeping up on 15 years.
And Civility Partners is a consulting firm focused on turning around toxic behaviors and toxic culture.
So while there are many culture consultants out there, That is our niche.
And I started this business pretty quickly out of graduate school.
I was a director of HR working in an environment where there was one toxic person.
And because I was in HR I could see got a nice view of how he destroyed the organization, person by person.
Ended up getting my master's degree while I was working there and did all of my graduate research on workplace bullying.
And so I have a super niche level of knowledge around that very particular phenomenon.
Yes.
Oh, this is exciting.
And kudos to you at 14 years.
When you look at statistics in entrepreneurship, surviving a year is a big accomplishment.
Kudos.
And I know you're focused on scaling too.
I want to make sure that you can shout that out because that's really exciting.
Yeah, thank you.
I'll just say I had a hard lesson earlier in the year around just how unable we were going to be able to scale or how not ready we were to scale.
I was working with a partner and her and I were bringing in sales like crazy and it was great, but then we couldn't support that on the inside of the company.
And so it was a blessing in disguise to really just You can read books about scaling and all of that, but to really have that slap in the face like oh, now I get it.
I really get it.
So the whole the company is looking very different and we've just Everyone's firing on all cylinders to really nobody wants to go back to what it was.
All that chaos.
Yes, let's have process.
And yeah, it's super fun.
We're having a good time.
This is great.
And you can see me laughing as you were saying this, not laughing at your pain.
I'm laughing with your pain.
I think we all do.
I'm going through the same thing.
It's so tough.
And the books make it sound kind of not easy, but manageable.
But I think really there should be a chapter in every book called like it's going to hurt and you can't avoid it.
So kudos to you.
Congratulations.
And I'm excited to get into this, because a lot of times when we think about dealing with bullies in the workplace, really the advice is essentially, how do you slay the dragon?
But i think what's really interesting is that you come in and you're saying, how do i coach the dragon?
And so i think that's a really fascinating paradigm shift, because you're working with the person who's considered a bully or a difficult person.
So what is it that made that your focus?
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Yeah.
So there's a lot of villainizing these individuals.
And I get that.
I was at the receiving end of that behavior.
And I think my journey helps.
I learned about this person I was working with through the lens of academia.
I was not in therapy.
I wasn't in a Facebook group where everybody's complaining about the bully they work with.
I was learning about it from a very logical place, which is how I function anyways.
And so I learned a lot about the context that this person's in, the CEO's allowing this behavior.
Like we can't just be.
Well, they're a psychopath and I know it feels like that and some of them are.
I have a few of them but in general they're really good people and they really want themselves to be successful, but also the team and the organization and they're, which is ironic.
And again, I know if you're at the receiving end of this behavior.
It certainly does feel like they're a psychopath, but they're not waking up in the morning excited to make your life miserable.
They're excited to see the organization succeed.
And so I joke they're my delicate little flowers or little glass animals, because what's happened is they've learned to fight real hard to look competent.
And when somebody makes them feel like I'm going to look incompetent because of your mistake, or you're so smart that, or the leadership really likes you and that threatens my competence.
They start to lash out.
So they can be tamed, and it's about coaching and helping them recognize the impact they have on the people around them and then giving them some strategies.
So I fell into it just by nature of getting my master's degree and focusing on bullying and just really trying to find all the ways that I can solve that problem.
And coaching is one of them.
I love this.
This is really helpful.
And now for all of those people who don't identify as a bully, do not turn off.
OK, we're going to we're going to help you out about you, too.
Yeah, we're getting to you, too.
But I love this point because this is really, really helpful.
Again, like you said, we vilify these people.
We say, oh, you're awful.
And our lots in life is to deal with you.
But instead you're saying hey at their core.
They're genuinely generally good people and they want to be successful.
They want the team to be successful, but they've learned to fight in order to protect their competence and be seen that way.
And it's in their mind, they might not feel as though they're being aggressive.
Right.
But the world perceives them as the aggressor.
And I think that can really help us approach these conversations with them with a little bit more empathy, understanding and compassion, which could go a long way when it comes to dealing with these really tough conversations.
Absolutely.
If you go into it feeling like they intend to harm you, then it's a lot harder to talk to them about it, right?
But if you recognize they're actually good people, you got to find the right way to talk to them, because they don't like emotions.
The only emotion they're showing is the anger.
Other emotions, they don't kind of believe in those that work.
Right.
So but just recognizing they just don't understand the impact they're having.
So hopefully that makes it a little bit easier to talk to them.
They're not there to hurt you.
They just don't know they're hurting you.
Exactly.
I think that's a really, really great point.
And again, when we fall into this trap of mind reading and we're saying yes, they are intending to do this, it makes it more hurtful for us and doesn't improve our performance in the process.
So I think that's an important thing to keep in mind.
And then can you address the fact which I think might be shocking to a lot of people, but let's go into the reality that a lot of these people that we classify as difficult do not believe that they're being difficult.
They don't even recognize that.
Can you go deeper into that one?
Yeah.
So because they've been living in this world of fighting their whole lives.
And just to give you some examples, all of my coaching clients have a story.
One woman came from China as a probably 18 year old.
She didn't speak English.
She was the sixth child.
She was a daughter.
She literally, literally grew up on the crumbs of the children before her growing up in China.
And she came here, didn't speak English and worked her way through getting a PhD.
And she's the quality control manager at a pharmaceutical company, or sometimes it's just surroundings.
One guy I coached grew up, he loved to say, I grew up in the side of Chicago.
So he just had this tough exterior that he had honed in on.
So when I'm working with them, it's helping them recognize you don't have to fight anymore.
People think you're competent.
Look at where you're at.
I'm coaching executives and VPs and C-suite.
So that's where it comes from.
They've just developed this mode of operation around fighting.
And I can't teach them emotional intelligence, I feel.
And that might be a little bit of a bonus if they do learn some, but it's very focused on strategies.
So when you talk to someone, if you're a leader, especially addressing someone who bullies in your workplace, of course they're going to justify and deny.
You want to talk to them about his perception.
So don't get in a fact battle with them where you're saying well, I heard at the meeting yesterday that you did this and this, or at the meeting, I saw you do this and this.
They don't understand.
So that's futile.
What you say instead is the perception is that you come across as abrasive.
And that's a lot of people's perception getting a steady stream of complaints about how abrasive you are.
And when they justify and denies, I don't know, I'm not in every meeting you're in.
I'm just telling you the one fact that I know is several people perceive you this way and we need you to change that perception of you.
And so it becomes more about that.
Then you're broken.
Stop hurting people.
Catherine, this is great.
This is a really strong start, because the focusing on that term perception is a really strong strategy, because it detaches from this.
You're right.
I'm wrong type of conversation that is doomed to go nowhere, because we can both agree on what has occurred, but then everybody can disagree on the perception of it too.
And so, by being very intentional about the words that you use when you're having these conversations, it makes it less likely for the conversation to spiral out of control and be unproductive.
And I feel and you tell me if I'm wrong on this i feel like a lot of people would be surprised that people think that they are difficult.
Is that what you see too?
Yeah, oh yeah, they don't get it.
And that's where part of the coaching is working with.
I interview people who work with them.
I'm not on a fact-finding mission like hr, investigating each harassment complaint, right.
I just ask basically, tell me about your perception of this person, And so I'm reading fully in perception.
I don't.
And so then I take all those notes.
I move them all into themes.
It's often a 20 page document and I read it to them.
And it's like, theme number one, you shame people in public.
And then here are the words of the people I interviewed.
And of course, they were removing, identifying information, but they don't know who said what.
But you can't argue with the fact that you're perceived as shaming people in public, because I interviewed 15 people and they all agree that you do that.
And some of them try to get smart.
They'll say, well, that's their perception.
Everybody has their own reality.
And it's yeah, but you have 15 people sharing a reality.
That's all their perception.
So it's a reality.
At this point, because 15 people see it that way.
So it's just, yeah, like really pushing back.
And so that's that call is hard for me and them.
It's not a fun call.
But what I see is the.
That's where they really start to go.
Oh my gosh, I didn't know it was this bad.
Help me.
I don't want to be seen this way.
I wouldn't want to work for me.
So it's just that mirror is super powerful.
Yeah, I'm wondering, tell me what you think about this.
Tell me if this resonates.
And I might be completely wrong.
So tell me if I'm wrong, right?
I feel like part of the reason why it might be surprising for many people who get this label is that in their mind let's use the example that you gave they still see themselves as the small child that everybody forgets who's eating the crumbs and they are.
They got to where they were because they've been fighting and fighting and now, all of a sudden, they in their mind they always see themselves as the underdog and now they haven't Like.
Their perception of their selves hasn't advanced as quickly as their career and success has.
So now they look like a bully because they're fighting when they don't really need to.
That's exactly right.
So a lot of coaching calls are around, you're not the competence crusader.
Look where you're at.
Educate people, use your powers for good.
And I just want to add too, again, they're in a context of their organization, right?
So the other piece is they've been getting rewarded for that behavior.
I'm not coaching a low-level person in the retail store.
These are high-level people.
The organization invests in them and coaching because they want to keep them, because they are valuable.
So it's usually the narrative is they've been acting that way for a really long time.
And not only it's been ignored, it's been getting rewarded.
They've been getting promotions.
They have a team.
They're all this stuff.
And usually what happens is HR has been trying to convince the C-suite, we got to address this.
The C-suite's afraid to poke at it because they don't want that.
It's a funny thing.
Like, let's go tell that person they can't be that way.
And they're just going to say, I want to be a bully somewhere else.
It's like such an unrealistic fear that CEOs have.
But usually there's some sort of catalyst.
The seventh person finally quit and the CEO's like, all right, seven's too many.
It's a shame it's not just one or two, but yeah.
Or we finally we got a third harassment complaint or somebody else who's really valuable quit and cited that person as the reason.
So what i found is there's some catalyst where this ceo is finally going.
Okay, i get it.
We do have to address this now.
So it's hard because they've been rewarded and here i come you can't act that way anymore.
This is so fascinating because we can see this from so many different angles.
Right,
Because we have it from you as the coach having this difficult conversation with this person.
That's a tough conversation to have.
And we're seeing the skills that you bring into the conversation to be persuasive.
But then we also have the people within the company.
They have to have this conversation with the bully.
How do I manage myself with this bully?
How do I set boundaries and advocate for myself and things like that?
But then we also have people internally in my bhr or other employees going to the c-suite, the ceo, whoever it happens to be, and says this person is a problem, we need you to do something, you have the authority, i don't have the authority, so you do something.
That's another difficult conversation, so let's get deeper into that one too.
They are apprehensive and we've already outlined why.
So if somebody is saying i'm going to my boss to try to get my boss to address this toxic behavior,
What is the best way to go about having that conversation with the leader?
A couple of thoughts.
One is think about what kind of leader you have.
If you have kind of an emotional visionary, charismatic type of a leader, maybe they'd be more interested in the feelings around it.
So then conversation is more like There's this perception.
Keep using that, because we can't argue facts.
We're not doing an investigation.
It's just, there's a perception among the team that our manager doesn't like us.
Our manager is abrasive or whatever we're insert the words and it's hurtful because.
So that's one option.
Some leaders are super data-driven, so you might say something more like hey, I know that Frank brings in a million dollars in sales, but also we've had a lot of turnover in our sales department.
SHRM, the Society for Human Resources Management, says that costs between 30 and 50 percent of someone's salary.
So if we do the math, maybe he's not bringing in a million dollars because he's costing us money.
So you could try that data.
The other piece is maybe try to steer them.
Could be, look, technically, this is not.
The difference between workplace bullying and harassment is that one is focused on a protected characteristic and the other is not.
So I always joke, if you want to be a bully, just bully everyone.
And then you're well within your legal rights to do that.
Exactly.
But if you can highlight that one wrong move and a woman, person of color could sue.
So try to tie it as much as you can to the legal liability.
So those are my three options for you.
It's so funny Catherine, as you were saying that, put on my lawyer ears and I was like, oh man, you're right.
So like, it's so funny.
You're absolutely right.
If you bully one person as a problem, just bully everyone if you're safe.
Wow.
What a-
Twisted world we live in.
That's hilarious.
No, these are really great.
So let's recap this.
So if you have a more of an emotional, like a visionary leader, we're gonna focus on the perception.
And then we're gonna talk about how this person's behavior makes you feel.
And then we could really tie that to productivity as well.
If everybody has low satisfaction, low engagement because of a toxic coworker, that hurts productivity.
Really clear connection there.
Then if the person's more data-driven focused only on the numbers, let's bring in the numbers, cool.
So the number that they're gonna focus on I love the business development idea is going to be that big number.
What is the revenue they bring in?
We don't talk about the costs that are associated with that person, and that's often what is not considered, especially from a ceo, because those are a little bit more intangible.
And then also confirmation bias would lead you to take the path of least resistance.
I don't want to have this tough conversation.
They're a monster.
You're just you're telling me I know.
And now I have to do that work, too.
So the confirmation bias will lead us to the path of least resistance.
So I love the data.
That's great.
And then scaring them as a lawyer.
I love scaring people.
It's a joke, but you're absolutely right.
I think with.
One of the things that's interesting is that the as humans, we crave certainty and that unknown is absolutely terrifying.
And you just leave them with a what if you don't even need to finish the sentence?
So what if they say this to the wrong person?
And honestly Catherine, like that's a big one too, because my last book, How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race I approached it as balanced as I could with the topic.
And I said, hey, as a person of color, you'll have to have these conversations.
As an ally, you'll have to have these conversations.
And if you are not a person of color, you will likely be accused, whether rightly or wrongly.
And so that's a scary thing.
And so helping people have those conversations, but making it really clear that the perception is different.
Because I was working with the police one time doing a mediation and I did an analysis.
I saw that, hey, actually, legally speaking, they did the right thing.
And they were trying to use that fact to defend themselves.
And so I told them, I was like, all right, cool.
So let's say you get pulled over and the cop is a jerk to you.
What do you think?
They say, yeah, I think the cop is a jerk.
Let's do the exact same scenario.
Now you are a person of color and the cop is a jerk to you.
What do you think?
Oh, I think they're racist now.
Right.
And so when you ask it in that question and pose that situation, it becomes really clear the danger that you're in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm going to have to check out this book.
Yeah.
It's all right.
It's OK.
That's the thing about perceptions.
And I think as businesses, we do get so focused on the facts and the numbers and the tangibles.
You can't.
Turnover isn't a line item on your PL because it's really hard to understand exactly what it costs, but you can make some estimates.
And that's what I tell.
I speak a lot to HR and it's yeah, you get a hostile work environment complaint, you do an investigation.
Of course you should do that.
But there's so much more beyond, this isn't law and order.
This is a workplace made of people.
And so the facts are important, but so is how people feel about what's going on.
And even if it comes back that, There's no findings.
Yeah, the person's kind of a jerk, but it's not related to race or gender, what have you.
They still make people feel like it's a hostile work environment, even if technically it's not.
Right.
So.
I think HR and business in general.
So yeah, I think this and you see that paradigm shift.
We're moving more to things like engagement, and then Black Lives Matter happened and we're starting to look more at inclusivity.
So what, The shift from people is cogs in a wheel is moving, but we have a long way to go.
Agreed.
And now let's shift to what I think a lot of people are looking for with this episode.
They're like, okay, that's great.
I like empathizing with the bully.
And yes, the CEO has a hard time, but Catherine and I have a hard time.
I'm the one dealing with this bully.
I have no authority over them.
I can't just force them to be nice.
And so for somebody who is having regular run-ins with a colleague who is displaying these bullying types of behaviors, what advice do you have for them to make those difficult conversations a bit easier?
So much advice.
The first thing I'll say is the minute somebody makes you feel like you're being disrespected or sorry.
Nobody makes you feel anything.
The minute you feel disrespected by somebody or they're overstepping, address it, because Those little moments of incivility are, they escalate over time.
So what happens is somebody who engages in incivility, it starts to become normal for them.
Nobody speaks up against it and it just starts to become how they function.
So the earlier you can do it, the better.
And there's tons of research.
That's the case.
They respect you, that you stood up for yourself.
They see you as competent.
You're good to go.
Versus, if you're listening and feeling like gosh.
I've been getting treated this way for a year or three years or five years.
A couple pieces of advice.
One is recognize that whatever you feel about it is probably a thousand times worse in your subconscious.
And I just really feel the need to tell you to take care of you, see a therapist.
Understand that Whenever, if and when you leave that organization, all of that you've been hiding or holding in so you could function at work will come down on you like a ton of bricks.
So take care of you.
Find some outlets.
In terms of in the moment at work.
Questions are one of my favorite ways to kind of stop people in their tracks.
So you could say something like, do you know that you're yelling?
Or did you notice that when you rolled your eyes and made a joke yesterday at the meeting, that the whole tone of the meeting changed?
So those are good ones.
Do you mean to be abrasive because you are being that way right now?
Questions are one of my favorites.
The other piece of advice is rally the troops, right?
So I'm not saying go around and talk crap about this person and try to build a mutiny, but recognize that if you're going to go to HR, the more of you complaining the better.
So if you can get a group of people to go to HR to say look, we all report to this person and this, we all feel this way.
It needs to change.
That's a much different conversation than I feel this way.
Because unless you call hostile work environment, HRs may not really have the resources or authority to really dive in there and help you.
So I'm not saying falsely call that either.
But yeah, recognize HR has to report to the C-suite and they kind of need a business case.
So if you can help them make that business case, that's going to be more likely that they can help you.
Wow.
This is a masterclass.
Okay, great.
So let's start from the top here.
So I love the fact that you made it so clear that as soon as we feel this, we have to address it.
And you're absolutely correct, because now does the length of time between an accusation and the event necessarily diminish the validity of the accusation?
No.
However, it does diminish the persuasive value of the accusation.
Because the simple retort is if this was such a problem Catherine, you would have mentioned it two years ago, right?
And so it undermines the argument.
And so, even though it doesn't feel good to have to address it and we'd rather stop and think through it Hey no, we're recognizing that there is some urgency and it doesn't necessarily need to be in that very specific moment.
Take a few minutes, take an hour, take a day.
But notice once you go beyond that 24 hours, then I think the credibility shot clock starts to tick.
And you start to get dinged for that.
So that is great.
And also people don't address the benefits of addressing these conversations, because sometimes if somebody is using force to try to get one over on you, sometimes the only thing they respect is that force.
And we're not saying that we're going to engage in a firefight.
But what we're doing is we're going to say, hey, I recognize this.
I didn't like it.
And I'm going to let you know.
And this is how we can work better going forward.
And people do respect that.
And sometimes you have to put your foot down to in order to get that respect.
And it's not again, not easy, but it's something that we have to do.
And we have to come to the fact that, hey, listen, at the end of the day, we're social primates.
We're just like we just have to be a little bit smarter.
Right.
And we will respond in similar ways.
And sometimes you have to put your foot down and make a stand.
Yeah.
Can I share a quick story about that?
Please do.
It's so perfect.
So when I was finishing out graduate school, I worked at a new organization.
It was a startup tech firm.
And of course, everybody knew I was going to grad school, focusing on workplace learning.
And one of my coworkers, he would talk to me about, well, don't you think our boss is a bully?
I mean, you know about bullying isn't even and I'm like, But I wouldn't say he's a bully, but my coworker was really feeling picked on.
And then comes the day where sights turned to me.
What happened was I made a huge mistake with the client and the CEO sent an email to me.
And for whatever reason, CC'd many people in the office and he really chastised me.
And I thought it's now or never, right?
If I don't speak up, I'll become my coworker.
He's going to see me as weak and he'll start.
So what I did was hit reply to all.
I said, There are three options I propose to solve this problem.
One, two, three.
And if you'd like to talk about which option for me to select, let's do that in your office with the door closed.
And I hit send.
And he comes out of his office within five seconds and yells across.
What great email, Kat.
Way to put the hammer down.
And he said, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
I was like, if we're going to involve everybody, okay, let's do that.
Let's involve everyone.
And of course, he went after me again.
So that's a perfect example of make it happen.
Do or die.
Oh, this is a mask.
This is good.
So first of all, I hope the audience is giving you a standing ovation because you need that.
That's really great.
And now I want to go deeper into this case study, Catherine, because it's perfect.
When you were drafting that email and when your finger was hovering over the send button, what were you feeling?
You know what?
I was feeling empowered because my previous job was where that bully was that got me into what I do.
And I knew the path I was going to end up going down if I didn't hit send.
So it was a feeling of like he might fire me, but I'm good with that.
I'm not staying.
And that's, that's a piece of this too.
So I have a book called Stand Up, Speak Out Against Workplace Bullying.
It's testimonials of people who have been through really ugly situations worse than mine.
And the one commonality they all have.
And just to back up, we, my research team and I were really wanting stories of success.
Like I consider myself successful.
I was bullied.
I was depressed.
I got fired. happened to still be getting my master's degree.
And look at me now.
I made a life out of it that I love.
But I wanted to know, are there other people like me out there?
And why do they feel successful?
And the one common theme in all of those stories.
They all kind of go like this down down, it's getting worse, it's getting worse.
And they all hit some version of kind of a rock bottom.
And that moment they go, forget this.
I'm not doing this anymore.
And so it's that decision to take their power back.
And it was something different for everyone.
One woman said it was like last draw.
I stood up from my desk.
I had this big giant thing of keys for the facilities and I dropped them on my boss's desk all dramatic.
Like I quit.
And I stormed out and that was her moment of taking her life back.
Would you consider her successful?
No, she left her job, but mentally, psychologically, she was successful.
And so you have to define what does success look like?
Am I going to try to go up against this bully and try to sue them and win?
That's probably not going to be successful either, right?
So another woman, she works for the Coast Guard.
She's a professor at the academy.
And her moment was to decide.
I'm Black, I'm lesbian, I have a PhD.
I'm in a male-dominated world where people are afraid of the LGBTQ community.
I'm going to be the Martin Luther King of the Coast Guard Academy.
She's still there fighting, but now it's her decision, right?
She's not a victim.
So anyway, big tangent, but.
Tangent.
This is right on track, Catherine.
This is great because essentially, what we're recognizing is that at some point you reach a point where you're saying enough is enough.
And we and I think this is a really important point.
We are willing at that moment to accept the consequences of the decision that we make.
Right.
Because we have to come to the realization that not every difficult conversation we have is going to go well.
People listen to the podcast to increase their likelihood of success, while recognizing it's not possible to be successful in these conversations all the time.
Right.
And once you start to get comfortable with the idea that this might not go well and I will still be okay, that's where you actually get power from.
And you get to a point where it's like, regardless of the outcome, I'm doing something that is for me.
And if things turn go well and I get my way, that's fantastic.
But even if I don't, at least I can look in the mirror and respect the decision that I made.
Exactly.
Because if you that whole empowerment, I love everything you're saying.
Understand that there may be a consequence, but you're going to feel good about it.
So in that moment, I hit send.
Maybe I'm going to be fired.
I'll be no worse off.
It'll be, I'm not going to stay here if he's going to bully me.
So it'll be good if I, or I might quit if it continues.
So yeah, being just that ownership of your life.
And unfortunately, what I see happen is A lot of people.
The bullying goes on for years and we're tied to our jobs.
Maybe you've been working there for longer than this person.
And so you feel like this is my job.
I'm not going to let you kick me out.
But the more you do that, the more power they have.
And so really taking ownership of like, if I left, what really would happen?
Or maybe I should go start to look for another job.
It just, it takes such a toll on you.
Lots of research that you can develop PTSD from work, just like a soldier when they go to war.
So it Just understand how important it is that you take ownership and address it.
But you'll be better off.
Absolutely.
And let's wrap up with this last point too, because I like to keep these episodes at about 30 minutes and my audience is like really,
90 minutes an hour, eight hours, let's go.
We just keep going.
I love this.
I love this, and so I feel like one of the best things people can do to prepare themselves for these difficult conversations within the workplace is doing things like preparing your resume and strengthening up your online presence and start to network and start to see what other options are out there.
So you can start to recognize that there is life after this, regardless of how that goes.
And so I want to talk to you about the preparation process.
But the unorthodox preparation process, that kind of just gears you up for survival, regardless of the outcome.
Yeah, that's that taking power back, right?
To recognize I'm going to start having, I'm going to start pushing back.
And it could go really wrong for me, but I'm owning that consequence or outcome because I'm prepared for it if that's what happens.
My first book called Back Off.
I actually have a whole it's probably like six or seven pages of just a worksheet of really thinking about What are the potential outcomes when I start pushing back.
Where's the boundary that I'm going to draw where if X, Y, and Z happens, I'm just going to quit?
What do I really want to have happen out of this conversation?
So just really taking some time to journal about it and absolutely just being really prepared for the potential outcomes, outcome.
But then when that outcome happens for example, let's say you get fired it would have been your decision, because you were prepared for it, and you'll feel a lot better about it.
So yeah, love that.
Love it.
This is great.
Catherine, I really, really appreciate you coming on the podcast.
And before you go, can you remind the listeners about your company, your books and how they can get in touch with you?
Sure.
I'm all over the internet.
Just Google my name and I'm pages of Google.
Our company is called Civility Partners.
Again, we focus on turning around toxic behavior and culture.
I've got three books out, Back Off, Stand Up, Speak Out, and Seeking Civility.
And at Back Off Sexually, I'm working on a new version.
So that's awesome.
Yeah, find me on LinkedIn.
I've got a ton of courses on LinkedIn Learning and would love to see you there watching those.
A lot of what we talked about today and more is there.
So thanks so much for having me.
This was really fun.
Yeah, my pleasure.
And thanks again, Katherine.
This was exceptional.
That's the power of a masterclass.
One topic, multiple lenses, and real world application.
And now the question is, what will you do with it?
Negotiation isn't theory.
It's practice.
It's self-awareness.
It's choosing courage over comfort.
So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation, because skill doesn't come from listening.
It comes from doing.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Hey, if you're still here, that means you really like this episode.
So why don't you leave us a review?
Five stars, please.
That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.
And now, I will catch you later.
