Hey, everyone.
It's Anna.
All right.
Before we start the show, I want to talk about Valentine's Day, because of course, we are already thinking about it over here at Modern Love.
We're hoping you can help us out.
We want to know the most romantic thing that's ever happened to you.
Or if it didn't happen to you, the most romantic thing you've ever seen or witnessed.
It could be something grand, a rom-com style gesture.
Maybe someone stood outside your window with a boombox or ran through the airport to stop you from leaving.
Or it could be something small.
Like someone knows, you hate olives, so they always pick them off your plate before you dig in.
Or someone slips a note in your lunchbox every morning to remind you how much you mean to them.
Whatever made you feel that rush of romance, from the big moments to the tiny ones, we want to hear about it.
And we want to know why it was so romantic to you.
If you have a story in mind, record a voice memo and email it to us at modernlovepodcast at nytimescom by February 4th.
And we might use your story on the show.
That's modernlovepodcast at nytimes.com.
And once again, your deadline is February 4th.
Thanks so much.
We can't wait to hear from you.
Now here's today's episode.
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin, and this is Modern Love.
I want to do a thought exercise really quick.
And just a warning, I'm about to get extremely personal extremely quickly.
I would like you to think about your own sex life.
I'll pause.
Think about it.
Is it fabulous?
Is it lacking?
Is it kind of a mix, 50-50?
When was the last time you really considered what turned you on?
What actually makes your body feel good?
And what you really want out of sex?
These are all questions my guest today wants us to ask ourselves.
Her name is Dr. Nicole McNichols.
She's a professor at the University of Washington, where she teaches a class all about human sexuality.
As you might guess, this is the most popular class on campus.
There's literally always a wait list.
And now she has a new book coming out called You Could Be Having Better Sex.
To write this book, Dr McNichols has poured over years of data, countless studies on what leads to good, fulfilling sex.
And today she's here to take us back into the classroom and teach us all how to have the best sex of our lives.
And by the way, if it isn't obvious, this conversation is very explicit.
So if you've got kids nearby, maybe pop on some headphones or save this one till later.
Dr. Nicole McNichols, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you so much, Anna.
I'm so excited to be here.
So Nicole, you teach the most popular course at the University of Washington, to over 4000 students each year.
It's called The Diversity of Human Sexuality.
And I have to say, if I was an undergrad, I would be rushing to sign up for this class.
What do you think that constant wait list, all those butts in seats, as it were?
What does that speak to?
What are people curious about?
What do they want to find out?
I think students are coming in with so much curiosity about sex, which is wonderful, because sexual curiosity is exactly what drives us all to be having better sex and more connected sexual experiences.
And they have been brought up either within their communities or with their teachers or with the schools that they've been at, with usually a complete lack of sex education.
I mean, there's no federally mandated sex education.
In fact, many schools, many states require schools to teach information.
That's just wrong and that's stigmatizing and invoking a lot of shame.
So to be able to... tell them, I'm here to make you relax, feel comfortable.
Because I think that's often the biggest surprise is just how important pleasure is in our lives, right.
We tend to think of pleasure as being something that's a treat.
And so many students that come into my classroom.
They are used to thinking of pleasure as something that they get to do after all their homework is done, after their two jobs that they're often holding.
Yeah, it's dessert, basically.
Yeah, yeah.
It's dessert.
I mean, we've all grown up in this very puritanical culture that treats sex like dessert.
You get lucky, even if the language that we use.
So to be able to first start from the point of view that there is reams of research showing how critical positive emotions and pleasure are to our well-being and not just to our well-being, but to our ability to think creatively, to problem solve, to broaden our perspectives and seek out sources of social support, all of which are going to help us cope with the inevitable challenges and stressors in our lives.
So, just starting from the standpoint of A pleasure is important, sex is important and, B most of what you've been taught about sex.
If you've been taught about sex is likely wrong, right.
Like, let's start over.
Nicole, sign me.
I'm on the wait list.
I'm 31, by the way.
I don't know if I can pass this to college students, but add me to the bottom of that dang wait list.
I mean you're speaking about sex as central to living a creative, fulfilled life, pleasure as not just a treat that we relegate to a corner when we've been good and we deserve it.
But I have to believe you didn't always see sex this way, right?
When you started teaching this course?
What was happening in your life at the time that you stepped into teaching this course?
I was at a time in my life when I desperately needed help with my own sex life.
I was a mother of three young children and a husband and two dogs, very needy dogs.
And I was so thrown into motherhood and the waking up at night and the exhaustion, joy.
I mean, incredible satisfaction and fulfillment from that.
But just feeling exhausted and touched out and having sex at that point it starts to feel like you're just fulfilling another person's physical needs, which is, You know, and just the guilt that came with feeling that way and feeling like I knew that I wanted to be able to connect with my husband and knowing sex was important, but not really knowing how to work through that.
It was hard and it definitely weighed on our relationship a bit at the time.
And this is the moment in your life when you step in to teach this human sexuality course?
Yes.
Yes.
Well actually Anna, I'm glad you mentioned that, because one other critical factor about my condition when I started teaching for the first time this human sexuality course is that I was also.
I had two young children and I was six months pregnant with my third.
Oh my goodness.
So I think, I think part of the reason I got selected is because the department figured I probably already knew something about sex, given that I was
They were like, she's at least had it three times.
Yeah, so she seems qualified.
Exactly.
Wow.
What a confluence of personal and professional.
I mean to put it, you know, in a zoomed out way, but all these factors you know converging at this point when you step in to teach this course.
I assume you're like soaking in the research.
What are you discovering?
What are you uncovering?
Well, I was fascinated and completely blown away at just how important sexual satisfaction is to relationship satisfaction.
And I... You know, everyone assumes, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, sex is important.
Right.
I was going to say, I feel like intuitively that makes sense, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But...
Looking at longitudinal data from Dr Amy Mews of thousands of couples over time finds that it's not just having a happy relationship is going to lead to necessarily better or more satisfying sex, that the direction of that is the opposite, that it's usually sexual satisfaction that's preceding relationship satisfaction.
So we might assume okay well, if I just work on my – and trust me, working on your relationship is critical and we can get into that.
But just understanding that if you look at couples over time who are asked to keep daily diaries of how satisfied they feel in their relationships and what their mental well-being is –
And how happy and satisfied with life they feel overall.
And how satisfying their sex life is.
What you see is that when an uptick in sexual satisfaction occurs, the joy and satisfaction in the relationship follows.
So it's a pathway in that people don't really appreciate enough, I don't think.
And I'm just, I'm going to say it back mostly because I want to make sure I understand it.
It's like, okay, yeah, good sex, good relationship, whatever.
What you're saying is working on your relationship.
That's not necessarily going to lead you to have better sex.
What the data does prove is that having better, more fulfilling sex is is a way to lead towards more relationship satisfaction.
It's like the sex is the vehicle?
Maybe that's the wrong word.
Yes.
Is that right?
The mechanism.
We love the word mechanism.
Vehicle sounds better.
Sex is the mechanism for relationship satisfaction.
Now, that is really, that is really interesting.
I mean, you're learning this stuff.
You're immersed in this as you're teaching this course.
How many years has it been now that you're teaching this?
Fifteen.
15.
15, yes.
Over the course of that, have you implemented the things you've learned in your course to your own sex life, your intimate life with your husband?
Absolutely.
The other thing that really gave me sort of a sense of hope, right?
Because you can think sex is super important.
But oh my God, like how am I supposed to be carving out having sex all the time with my husband when I am so busy with all of my kids and my teaching load?
And I was also really heartened to see, and, you know, I'm a data nerd, so...
I love it.
But you know, one of the hush-hush questions I often get from other couples that I have had too was okay, but like what's that magic frequency, right?
In other words, we know sex is important but like, how often do you really need to be having it to see these benefits that we know it leads to with relationship satisfaction?
And the answer, Anna, and this is a mean, an average...
I love it.
What's the number?
Once a week, which is not an astronomical amount of time, right?
No, it is not.
And it's not that you know couples who have sex more than once a week.
That's fantastic if they want to do that.
But when we look at the benefit of sex to relationship well-being, it doesn't increase after about once a week, which means Yeah, yeah.
And so for those of us who...
Love to have a target, right?
Like, I work out three times a week.
Or a ringed society, totally, yeah.
I get my protein count in.
It's nice to know, okay, that target is once a week.
I really like this because for many couples I feel like hearing that number one time a week.
Having sex one time a week is implementable and quite doable and not intimidating.
Exactly.
Okay, so a lot of us have questions about our sex lives, but not all of us can take your course, unfortunately.
So for someone who wants to have better sex, where would you tell them to start?
Well, I can give you the 10,000-foot answer and the specific answer to this.
Perfect.
I cannot offer you a GLP-1 shot to improve your sex life.
But I can give you a blueprint.
That blueprint, when we come back.
I want to throw out some different scenarios that people could be experiencing.
And really what I mean by that is, you know, the different types of sex people could be having.
There is casual sex, certainly, which I want to start there for personal reasons.
Of course not.
No, no, definitely not.
But let's say, you know, let's say someone is single, they're dating, they're having casual sex and they keep finding themselves having experiences that are just not great.
They don't necessarily have to be like awful, but they're just not great.
Applying these sort of you know ways to have better sex um, to this situation, what would be your first question for them?
I will say that, when it comes to casual sex specifically, I have a very different view than a lot of the messaging that we've seen about sort of the types of impact that casual sex has on people and relationships, which has mostly been negative, right.
Most of what we see in the media is fearful messaging.
It's awful.
It's terrible for women.
It leads to a sense of isolation and despair.
And the reality is that it absolutely can lead to those feelings.
But casual sex can also be awesome.
It can be exciting.
It can be pleasurable.
It can be a form of sexual adventure.
There's a study I love that even shows that.
Sorry, I'm just smiling because I'm like, hell yeah.
Yeah.
I even talk about a study in my class showing that, in the right context, casual sex can lead to an increased GPA.
Oh.
Okay, I am loving that.
This is real data.
And the key, right?
I mean, because, and this is what I see.
I see this in my classroom and it is completely that.
What's so nice about having such a large class is I can poll students and replicate findings that we see in the nationally representative data.
And when you really poll people about, okay, what was your last sexual experience truly like?
Okay.
It's very mixed, right?
And it tends to break into the following.
You see, about a third of people who are like nah, it was really like unsatisfying and it was sort of like it left me feeling empty, which is kind of the only message we get.
But then we get another third who say it was awesome.
It was pleasurable.
It was an adventure. adventure.
It was like the lead up, the game, the excitement, the anticipation, the not knowing.
That can be incredible, right?
And then you get about another third that are like, eh, it was a little bit of both.
And so I see that exactly replicated in my classroom, in the nationally representative data.
And here's the other thing that's interesting about this data is that People might think oh okay, the common reaction.
Well clearly, it's probably the men who are saying it's awesome and the women who are saying it sucks.
But actually...
There is a small gender difference, but not nearly as big as you might think.
In other words, there are a lot of women having a lot of fabulous casual sex, right?
And this is where I love to throw out the statistics from a very famous study.
I love how your brain is full of sex data, and I love it.
I know.
I'm a sex nerd.
Which is that...
When you look at this gender difference that exists between men and women enjoying casual sex, it goes away when you control for the variable of orgasm.
Meaning in plain English that when women have an orgasm, they enjoy casual sex on average just as much as men do.
Pause.
Pause.
Let's let that sink in.
Let's just let that sink in.
I'm going to say it back to make sure I understand.
There is a discrepancy in terms of gender.
That's been proven for enjoyment of casual sex.
What you're saying?
But when a woman has an orgasm, that discrepancy lessens or even disappears forever. disappears.
And then the question, of course, becomes how are they pulling that off?
Yes, yes.
And what does the data show?
Okay, so this is juicy.
The data show.
And you know when you hear this it's a little bit of common sense, but The data show that it really comes down to motivation.
In other words, what are you looking for in the experience?
And are you looking for adventure and play and fun and experimentation and letting off stress, or even
Sexual validation, meaning while you're coming into yourself and you kind of want to, you know, gain some confidence.
It actually can be effective for that as well.
And so when your motivation is those what we call autonomously driven reasons, right?
When there's a sense of what we call self-determination within the approach to casual sex, it's.
It can be really exciting and hot and fun.
On the contrary to that, when there is a need for a sense that you're having it because you actually want something deeper but you're not quite sure how to ask for that, it can lead to really poor results.
Autonomous motivations meaning driven from internal, internal and you are clear on your purpose.
Huh, and that is the greatest indicator of satisfaction in casual sex.
Yes, it is.
In other words, you could sort of sum it up as you're coming to the experience from a place of freedom, true freedom, not because of norms, not because you think it's the only thing available, but because you are driven and have a sense of purpose about it, as you said.
Yeah.
In terms of casual sex.
Let's say, someone is truly going into casual sex with those autonomous reasons, with a clarity of purpose.
You know, casual sex is often with a partner you might not know so well.
What are some ways, which is tricky because this is like a new body to navigate.
What are some tips you have for sort of maximizing pleasure when you're basically kind of sleeping with a stranger?
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
And this is where I think it's relevant to mention my consent manifesto.
This is a very important thing to bring up now, of course.
Yes in my book, because we've had conversations to date about okay, the most important thing with casual sex is consent.
True.
Yes.
But we have a very limited definition of consent right now in our culture, which is mostly limited to our physical boundaries, right.
And there's this idea that you sign some contract in the beginning of the experience and you either have consent or you don't, right.
And that it's just sort of black and white, right?
And that's really problematic for a variety of reasons, but-
The place I really try to take this conversation to, both with my students and when I give talks, is we need to start bringing in not just respect for each other's physical boundaries, but respect for each other's social and emotional boundaries as well.
What I mean by that is we need to have a sense of emotional honesty.
We need to be normalizing things like saying, are you okay if this is just for fun?
Or how are you feeling right now?
Or where do you see this standing?
I can't tell what you want.
Can you give me a clue?
In other words, if you...
We need to be not just aware of what our own purpose is with the casual sex experience, but also, for consent to exist, be aware of the purpose that our partner is bringing to the experience.
Because when those two purposes are misaligned, that's what leads to a negative experience.
And same with a commitment to mutual pleasure.
Yeah.
Talk to me more about what that means to you in terms of how to have fulfilling casual sex.
It really means being comfortable communicating and having a certain handful of phrases that you feel comfortable using throughout.
And having respect for, and an understanding of, your own sexual communication style, as well as the sexual communication style, Because it really it's about being attuned to what are the best ways that I can exchange information about what I want, what turns me on, and then also having phrases to check in with your partner.
So it might be...
And this doesn't have to be necessarily a sit-down conversation.
It can be beforehand of what you're excited to do, and sometimes that does happen and that's fantastic.
But it can be as simple as just having phrases that you're comfortable using, like, guide me, right?
Ooh.
That's kind of hot, right?
I like that.
Yes.
Guide me is kind of hot, right?
Mm-hmm.
Show me, right?
Yeah.
Tell me, right?
Tell me.
Sighs, moans, right?
You know, what a lot of people don't realize is that those groans and sighs, we only project that at two times.
One when we're in pain and the other when we're experiencing pleasure.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it really operates at a neurological level to communicate pleasure, but also to help you experience pleasure.
I mean, okay, so I'm learning a lot here.
It's like how to have fulfilling casual sex is.
Understand your reasons for going into this experience, have a much richer understanding of consent not just physical, but also emotional, situational and then really really try to make the woman come.
Because if you do, then she will love it too.
Exactly.
If there's one takeaway, make sure the woman comes.
Okay, so casual sex is one context that someone could be having sex.
Another context, and of course there are many shades of context in between.
But then we have the sort of opposite end of the spectrum, which is a long-term relationship, right?
Yes.
And if someone's listening and they are in a long-term relationship where the sexual spark has faded, if not completely gone out, What would you recommend they do to reignite that spark?
So there's sort of two main areas that I would advise couples to look at, right?
One is the actual types of sex that they're having, as well as the more relational variables.
So if we start with the types of sex, right?
So we can look at studies that have been done of you know, thousands and thousands of couples who have been interviewed and asked you know, first of all, how sexually satisfied are you in your relationship?
And tell us what you do during sex, right?
This is the cool kind of science I didn't know existed.
Exactly.
It's like what sex researcher dreams are made of, right?
Yeah.
And so it comes down to, you know, there's sort of five major variables that they identify.
And they're kind of like all over the place in terms of, in terms of the aspects they're drawing from.
The first one is set the mood.
Don't just expect yourself to go from all those work emails to jumping into bed and having amazing sex right.
Set the mood is both for yourself internally, but also whether it is all the things that you might think of with setting the mood lighting candles, lowering the lights.
But here's something that was really kind of adorable that is lovely.
And take with this information what you will.
You're allowed to just ignore it if you are listening to this podcast and this makes you go vomit.
But couples who say, I love you during sex are actually, I know.
I mean, I like that.
And also, I think I remember this in your book, Kissing.
Kissing, we don't kiss our partners enough.
And kissing during sex increases the chances of orgasm, particularly for women.
Researchers think it's because if you're kissing, it's likely slowing the pace of sex and increasing emotional intimacy, which are two things that tend to be more conducive to orgasm for women.
But, by the way, kissing when you're not having sex, it's not tied to sexual satisfaction, but it does predict relationship satisfaction, which goes to the point that sex should not be the only time that you're touching your partner, right?
You should be engaging in affectionate non-sexual touch as well.
But going back to this, you know, these variables.
So setting the mood.
Setting the mood.
Okay.
Okay, setting the mood.
Also, perhaps not surprisingly, prioritize orgasm, right?
We just talked about that, yes.
We talked about that.
This one's a little bit nuanced, because when you really dig into the data, It's not the case that you have to have an orgasm in order to have an amazing sexual experience.
And Anna, I am probably guessing that, like me, during your single years you can think of instances where you had an orgasm and the sex was meh.
And where you had an amazing sexual experience and didn't have an orgasm.
Yes.
Right?
And so there needs to be, you know, again, this goes back to widening our definition of what sex is.
It's not just penetration.
It involves a whole range of activities.
And so it is.
You know, there are plenty of times when maybe one partner is turned on and the other is, you know, sort of into it.
And so you know one partner uses their vibrator on the other partner, or you give your partner a hand job and there's kissing and connection and making out and it's playful.
And those can be really sexually satisfying.
And then there's when you reciprocate the next week, right?
And maybe it's, you know, you switch turns.
And it's just acknowledging that we're not always going to be perfectly synced with our partners.
And that's okay, right?
It's okay.
However, right, if...
Orgasm is always happening for one partner, but not the other.
Something to examine.
Something to examine.
Something to examine.
But there's color in that.
So it's set the mood prioritize orgasm with this sort of dimensionality that you're.
What is the third?
Communicate, which we've talked about.
Of course.
Using these phrases.
Guide me is my favorite one.
I really like that.
I really like that.
Right?
It's hot.
Show me.
Right?
Exactly.
Moans.
Sighs.
Again, make noise during sex.
Then switch things up.
Now, this one we hear all the time.
Novelty, novelty, novelty.
Okay.
But, of course... we all love goals, how much novelty, right?
Like, do I need to be doing something totally different every time we have sex?
And the answer is no, of course not.
Collective sigh of relief.
Collective sigh of relief.
If you want a number, right?
For those of you who like love to hit your targets-
Okay.
Data shows that couples who try to do something new once a month or more, right?
Once a month, right?
Tends to be that threshold.
I love that there's actual data for this.
I know.
So it's one time a week for couples.
Frequency.
Frequency.
And then it's one time a month to try something new.
For novelty.
I mean, of course, you anticipate this question, but how novel?
What is novelty?
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
So I love to discuss this idea of micro-novelty because it does not need to mean that you're going to a, you know, sex shop and buying a bunch of leather and buying a nurse outfit.
Jumping straight into shibari, you know, rope play.
Yeah, totally.
It can be.
That's fantastic if you want to try that.
But it can be as...
Subtle as instead of missionary, lifted missionary.
Tell us, I think I know what it is, but just to put a fine point on it, lifted missionary is...
Okay, so there's sort of two ways to achieve it.
It is missionary, as you might imagine.
You have two ways to do it.
You can either put a pillow underneath the woman's hips or her legs around her partner's neck, which is going to elevate the pelvis into an angle that is going to be more pleasurable and more likely to lead to orgasm for her increasing surface area of the places that feel the best for her.
And so this is an example of switching it up just slightly, right?
What's another example?
I really like this.
What's another example of micro novelty?
So trying out, maybe you have tried women on top, but maybe what you should try is women on top but having your chest against your partner.
Hmm.
I mean, these are all amazing positions to try out too, but I assume there's also micro-novelty in terms of outside of positions.
Oh, my God.
There's so much micro-novelty beyond positions, right?
It could be having sex in a different room, having sex while you're on vacation, having sex at a different time of day than you normally do, having sex that is with all the lights on.
Having sex that's with the lights off having.
I mean, it could be Role play probably, although is that micro novelty?
That feels a bit like...
Macro novelty.
I would categorize that more as pilling at the big guns.
Yeah, that's true.
I want to talk about those sort of bigger jumps in terms of spice level.
But one thing I want to bring us back to is you spoke about this idea, in long-term relationships, of how beneficial it can be to plan sex.
And I'm trying to holding these two things novelty and planned sex at the same time.
Talk to me about how those two things can coexist, because they seem maybe potentially contradictory, right.
Right, exactly, exactly.
And here, I just want everyone to consider two things.
First of all, again going back to the data, when we look at couples who, when we ask them at the beginning of the study, which do you think is hotter, planned sex or spontaneous sex?
Of course, everyone is like, oh, obviously spontaneous sex.
Like it has to be planned, that's robbing it of excitement and pleasure.
But when you ask them to keep daily diary studies and explain how hot and enjoyable the sexual experience was, guess what?
It's just as pleasurable when it's planned.
And that is data proven.
It's like planning... Data-driven binding.
Exactly.
And it's the perfect pathway into introducing these different types of micro-novelty, right?
Because you have time to think about what might be fun, to try to anticipate what might be different to
To fantasize, to get ideas, to send a sext earlier in the day to your partner.
That can be as wholesome as looking forward to tonight.
Fireflame to something that I probably shouldn't mention on a New York Times podcast.
Right?
We've crossed some lines before.
We have, yeah.
I like this.
It's like planned sex, it just kind of needs a rebrand, right?
It needs a new publisher.
Yeah, it does.
Because planned makes it sound rote, boring, routine, just another item on the to-do list.
But instead this is a regular erotic space where you can explore and be explored and try new things and look forward to it.
I mean, this is something that what if the sort of the planned sex time comes, you know, 9 pm on a Thursday?
Whatever you've decided and you're just not into it.
Like you've talked about how someone can warm up a partner, but to me it's like Yeah, it feels to me like a bit of a tricky line if you're just really not feeling it.
What would you say in that kind of situation?
The planned sex time comes and it's just it's not for you.
Normalize rescheduling.
Yeah, but really rescheduling.
Yes, but really rescheduling.
Put another date on the calendar.
I recommend the next night, right?
Now, of course, there's limits to that, right?
I mean, if you find that it's reschedule reschedule rejection, rejection that never feels good to anyone, right?
And that's when we can get into sort of these larger relational aspects that might be impacting your level of desire in the relationship.
Right, but rescheduling is fine, you know.
I mean, think about that.
We reschedule other things in our life.
Just don't reschedule for two months away.
Yeah.
I have a 48-hour rule, I would say.
And this is, maybe that's not daydreaming, but that's a Dr. Nicole McNichols rule.
McNichols, exactly.
Planning sex...
I mean, maybe this is obvious, but it makes it a priority.
I'm just thinking about all the stuff that's on my calendar.
That's like take out trash like stuff or I don't know, like you know laundry.
And it's these things are way less fun than sex.
And yet they have a place on my calendar.
Right.
Yes.
And so, yeah, giving it the importance, the import that it deserves.
Just to go back to this idea of novelty if someone is interested in introducing novelty, be it micro-novelty, like we talked about, or some of these bigger swings like we're discussing, how would you recommend they bring this up to a partner?
I always lean into novelty the very basic fact that we all tend to do better with positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement.
So I would say, tonight have a conversation with your partner where you ask them what is the best sex we've ever had?
Right,
And marinate in that, talk about that, right?
Usually, when you talk about sex, that incredible sex that you've had and what was really amazing about it your brain naturally, is going to a place of what comes next, right.
How do we take that thing that turned us on in that moment, that led to that sexual experience being so incredible that we can now build on that right?
Maybe we enjoyed light spanking and we want to try a paddle.
Maybe it was that we were in a hotel room on vacation.
Maybe we want to try going to dinner and going to a hotel room in the city in which we live.
Who says you can't say to, you know?
In other words, there are ways to you know.
Maybe it was that it was you had sex before you went out to dinner instead of after.
Yeah.
Right?
Because you weren't, didn't come home and feel full and, you know.
Perhaps drunk on alcohol.
There are ways to build it.
I like that.
Grounding it in the positives and then saying, well, what can we do to build from this foundation?
That positive is your launching point and you use your sense of curiosity to go from there.
Exactly.
And I like that you said tonight because you can do that tonight.
You can, you know, those listening.
Yes.
You know, I wonder if there is sort of a?
I don't know, I'm sort of like becoming a mantra person, which is unexpected for me, but I sort of am.
Let's just be honest.
And I wonder if you have a sort of mantra or rallying cry, or whatever you want to say that we could keep in mind if someone listening does want to start tonight, does want to begin tomorrow.
The work, the joyful, fun, flirty work of having better sex.
What's a mantra we can hold on to?
Own your pleasure.
Yeah.
I mean, it really is about owning your own particular brand of what makes you, come to a sexual situation, feeling empowered to show up, assert your own needs, communicate and have a mutually pleasurable experience.
And it's really about taking ownership, right?
Taking that responsibility into your own hands and knowing that you have the power to do it.
I knew you'd have a mantra.
I knew you'd have a mantra right there, right at the front.
Dr. Nicole McNichols, A, I meant it about you saving me a spot in your class.
Done.
B, thank you so much for this conversation.
I really appreciate it.
Anna, this was such a delight.
Thank you so much for having me.
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez.
It was edited by Lynn Levy, Jen Poyant, and Davis Land.
Original music in this episode by Alicia Baitube, Diane Wong, Marion Lozano, Roman Nemisto and Dan Powell.
Dan also composed our theme music.
This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
