You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Yushan in the studio.
Coming up, social media has been blamed for everything from low self-esteem to anxiety in teens.
Australia says enough is enough, banning platforms for under-16s.
And yes, even a world's leading video platform is on that list now. but is lumped is lumping video sites in with social media apps going a bit too far and need a boost to crush the week.
Our special segment Motivational Monday is your ultimate adrenaline shot to kick things off strong.
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And now let's switch gears. Australia is set to ban kids under 16 from using social media, and the video platform YouTube just made the list.
The video is, well, actually the move is all about protecting young minds from online harm.
But how enforceable is it really? And while the world debates, China is sticking to a slightly different playbook.
No direct ban of social media use for minors, but plenty of restrictions.
So, Steve, let's go to you first. What is Australia proposing regarding social media for children and why?
Yeah, so they're implementing a nationwide ban on social media for kids, as you mentioned, under the age of 16.
So this is going to be for YouTube, which is the video sharing platform.
Also TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, and X, that's formerly Twitter, right?
As you mentioned, the goal here is to restrict younger users from creating or holding accounts on these platforms.
And the government is looking to states and territories to implement the ban.
The ban is set to take place on December 10th of this year.
Now, it's not a full ban. What that means is if you open up these social media apps on your phone, that's okay.
But you're not allowed to have, for example, the video sharing platform.
You're not allowed to have an account there if you are under 16.
But you'll still have access there. to the interactive features of the platform.
But with this ban, the kids won't be able to comment on videos, they won't be receiving personalized recommendations from their algorithms, and they also won't be able to post their own content.
And it targets active account holders to curb the engagement with features linked to potential harm, but still again allowing access to video content for viewing.
Understood. I thought a ban is a ban. I thought like children or teenagers under 16 years old in Australia are not, will not be able to have access access to this platform in general.
It seems like they still have the access.
It's only on the engaging part and commenting.
It's very much a restricted access, though, isn't it?
Yeah, because and the debate here is whether a video sharing platform is social media or not.
And we're going to get to that part in just a sec.
The government, though, they said in Australia, the government said that they're responding to what they see as overwhelming support from parents and the community for stronger protections of their kids.
There was a survey not long ago that showed that nine in 10 Australians support some form of age assurance for social media platforms.
And the government says this 90 percent survey result reflects how society as a whole feels about the youth of the country using social media.
Age assurance means you have to be of a certain age to to make use of the platforms.
That's so interesting because we don't really necessarily see a similar nationwide discussion in China.
What this is insinuating with such a strong and large proportion of public opinion tilting towards China.
Yeah, it's, it reminds me of like, you know, alcohol, when you're above a certain age, you can consume alcohol in many Western countries and What are some of the other age assurance policies?
Driver's license. Something like that. Yeah.
The prime minister, Anthony Albanese, he said, we know this is his quote.
We know that social media is doing social harm.
My government and this parliament are ready to take action to protect to protect young Australians.
Well, that sounds interesting. pretty adequate coming from a politician who's aiming to gain some votes i would think i mean the most recent news is that youtube was added to this list and why do you think it's being included as social media previously luckily it missed the list right yeah there's been a previous um legislation that was passed in november 2024 which among which youtube was initially exempt from that ban and the reason given back then was that its popularity as an educational tool with officials arguing that it primarily functioned as a video sharing platform rather than a social media service kind of win its popularity, saying that, OK, young people can still use it.
But nowadays, this new decision was reversed following a strong recommendation from Australia's e-safety commissioner, Julie Inman Grant.
So her advice was based on the research indicating that YouTube was the most prevalent platform where young Australians could Nearly four out of 10 children reported experiencing online harm.
So the commissioner argued that no simple platform should be exempt as risks can still change.
Yeah, and this is the debate over whether this particular platform, this particular video sharing platform works. qualifies as social media or not, because there doesn't seem to be much of a debate when you talk about TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or things like that.
Everybody seems to agree that that is social media.
Hence the exemption back in November of 2024.
They said at the time, oh, well, this platform doesn't qualify.
This isn't social media. But then again, the research indicated that, yes, indeed, it does qualify as for that and hence the reversal of the decision that is interesting because you mentioned well if we sort of break it down for people tick tock or in china we have douyin these are short video sites right and individuals upload their own videos so and you interact with people so maybe that's why it's counted as social media and it's easy for people to digest but with long video sharing platforms what's the counter argument of it not being social media?
Yeah, right. And YouTube has actually responded too, right?
They did, yeah. So they responded quite strongly, and I guess that was to be expected, right?
They said that they are very much against this decision.
They said that the ban is misguided. They said that it could infringe on users' freedom of expression.
They maintain the position that they are indeed a video sharing platform and not social media.
And they say quite strongly that their existing age gating measures and parental controls are sufficient enough to meet the demands of the Australian government.
And also YouTube, they claim the government's decision. reverses a clear public commitment to exclude them from the ban and warns that such a ban might push younger users to less safe and unregulated parts of the Internet.
So as per now, there is no confirmed report of how YouTube is having a formal file of a lawsuit against the Australian government at this point.
But still, we can tell that, yeah, there are huge debate online and worldwide as well, just regarding what truly constitutes social media and how can we classify on that.
Sure, yeah. And also, again, you know, the video sharing platform is just one.
It's not the only thing here, right? So I mentioned before, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat.
Those groups are against it as well. They called the decision rushed.
They also called it ineffective. And they say that the legislation lacks sufficient consultation.
They say that they ignored existing industry efforts for age appropriate experiences, generally asserting that their existing age gating and parental controls are sufficient.
They're arguing the same thing that the video platform is arguing.
Yeah. And for good reason, because they don't want to lose business.
And we can always think about, yeah, where did these companies come from when they're making these grand statements?
It's pretty obvious, right? What about here in China?
We don't have social media bans exactly like that.
But there are many digital fences for the protection of minors' online activities.
And also, I think it's worthwhile to talk about what constitutes social media in the Chinese context?
And we talk about it quite differently here.
It's a really good question because here in China, at least, we commonly believe that social media, they refer to online platforms that's based on user relationships that enable the creation and exchange of content.
But right now, if we look at more, say, concrete examples, and this is according to insights from Kantar, which is an international market research company based in London, that as social features become deeply integrated across various online platforms, more and more platforms are shifting from single purpose to multifunctional.
We were just talking about this, how chatting apps like WeChat and QQ, they're kind of seen as social media as well, even though they are, primarily taken as chatting apps.
They still have features such as Moment that's kind of can have you, the account user itself, to engage with the outside world, the friend circle specifically, and that forms a social media function in general.
And also in the broader sense, e-commerce platform like Taobao and JD.com And also job-seeking platforms like LinkedIn, knowledge-sharing platforms like news platforms.
Gaming platforms. What's the name of it?
Zhihu, maybe? Sort of like the Chinese Quora.
Yeah, the Chinese Quora, the Chinese chatting apps and news platforms.
They are all more or less, even music players, they are more or less seen as having some sort of social engaging and chatting functionality in such a multifunctional era for the digital apps.
That's why it's so subjective, right? The international definition of social media is very subjective and people can argue on both sides.
And they do. And currently, there are no specific laws in China directly regulating minors' use of social media.
But the principles outlined in the laws, they do provide protection for minors using social media.
So one example is that based on the regulation on the protection of minors in cyberspace, China's first comprehensive legislation specifically focused on the online protection of minors, they just regulates that online platforms, they must modify features that may induce addiction and that they need to establish an annually report on minor protection or youth modes.
I think we see youth mode on a lot of different apps and also learning, what's that called, AI learning machine nowadays that a lot of kids use to assist their studies.
So it's something common to see and that It's widely accepted by the Chinese families as well.
There's game restriction times too, right?
That's really famous. China was the first to implement it.
And that's really strict, right? So minor players can only access games from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays and legal holidays.
So parents can restrict that single session gaming duration from their own accounts through related tools.
Yeah, that's really quite strict, isn't it?
Also, there's the facial recognition voucher feature that's available too.
If a child uses a parent's account to log in during non-designated minor gaming hours, which undoubtedly some kids would try to do from time to time, that's when a facial recognition verification prompt will automatically pop up.
Yeah, the minor game time zones you just mentioned earlier, Steve, that's belonging to, I think, the Tencent games.
But for different apps such as Douyin, which is the domestic TikTok, they do ask for real-time authenticated username that's for under 14 years old account users.
So the platform they enforce... a mandatory minor mode that cannot be exited independently.
If daily browsing exceeds 40 minutes, then the password is required to unlock further use.
I think that's pretty cool. It also helps the parents to try to maybe... Control is too harsh a word.
Maybe try to operate the time or observe the time that the child is using on social media on a daily basis in a better and more organized way.
Yeah, well, these are some... pretty strict rules and they sound good on paper and young people can always outsmart their parents when it comes to technology right yeah and they can find ways to bike pass these restrictions unfortunately and we know that so what do you do i mean that's what that's what people against this, that's one of the arguments against this, right?
Is that, as we mentioned before, I think you, Sean brought it up as one of YouTube's points.
It's like, Hey, if you restrict them here, They'll go somewhere else.
They're going to go somewhere else. And they're going to go to a place that's unsafe.
They're going to try to outsmart and get there anyway.
So why bother going with this? The industry has kind of talked about this too.
Kids Screen is a multifaceted brand. It serves the kids entertainment industry.
And what they say is that banning kids under 16 is a terrible idea and it's going to be bad for kids and businesses alike.
Here's a statistic for you. Most respondents to their poll said that the ban isn't a good idea because that's a digital space where kids can learn and relax and it outweighs the negatives.
Um, there's that argument as well. Yeah.
Okay, fine. If, if they can't get on there, they're going to go somewhere else.
But what about they're treating this video platform like it's a criminal, like it's a villain, right?
This is, this is the argument for keeping the, um, the lack of age restrictions.
Um, Kids can learn a lot from this video sharing platform.
They can engage and be creative and it's a healthy space for them to be.
That's the argument for. But the argument against is pretty strong as well.
There is a quote from Felipe Mendez Ribeiro, who is the product manager at a Portuguese telecom company, NOS.
And I just picked this quote because I thought it proved the other side.
This platform started as a great idea, but over the last 10 years, it became a place where trash content is pushed by algorithms with the only goal of keeping users on the platform and consuming ads.
This is severely affecting children's brains and their healthy development.
So pretty strong argument for and also pretty strong argument against.
But with that ban, is it actually going to work?
Because nowadays we see a lot of young teenagers, they're even starting their own, say, channel on platforms such as YouTube or here in China, a more equal, say, Bilibili.
Yeah, a platform will be Bilibili. A lot of young people, they're sharing their opinions there too.
So a ban, is it really going to help? Well, looking at how past social media bans have occurred and many have struggled to deliver lasting change.
And looking at how China leans more on digital controls and parental responsibility, should the real focus be on guiding perhaps young people toward healthier online habits rather than simply locking them out?
And with the video streaming platform, it's not locking the kids out.
It's basically having a more restricted treatment to them. heavily restricted though from the children's eyes from a 15 year old australian's eyes just took my world you took their world this is what they grew up with right and now you're taking it away and also it's not just these kids there are future generations of kids kids being produced every day so it's important to look at the future too um Any final thoughts about this?
Just for me, one of the major points that I thought was important to bring up as well. is about the Australian media companies.
This is a quote from someone in the children's entertainment industry.
They said they've already wiped out content quotas for kids to keep the media companies happy, and they've defunded kids and family content with the public broadcasters as well.
So if they wipe out the content quota there, they wipe out the budget for kids' content, and then they take away all these social media platforms, where are children supposed to go for age-appropriate content?
Creating new ones and new business opportunities.
Oh, wow. Easier said than done. In China, social media isn't just a few platforms that make up your digital lives.
It's woven into e-commerce, education, gaming, and daily life.
That makes age-based bans harder to define and enforce if you look at the Chinese context, and we're not necessarily doing that.
While we see different countries go about the same issue differently.
Maybe one country Good question. Shouldn't stop at should we ban social, but how do we keep up with platforms that constantly evolve and raise kids who can think critically in the fast-moving Internet space?
Coming up next, Motivational Monday. Motivational Mondays.
Motivational Mondays. Yushan, what do you have for us?
Oh, just something so impressive and also heartwarming indeed.
Because last Wednesday, that's July the 30th, I had the chance to go into the NCPA, that's the National Center for Performing Arts.
That's located right here in the center of Beijing that an Australian violinist, Ray Chen, someone I've been following for the past decade, I just realized I've been following this guy's concert for over a decade right now.
And he was collaborating with the National Youth Orchestra of the United States of America. in creating a two and a half hours long concert for the audiences in Beijing.
This is just one stop in their Asian tour.
They also visit Japanese cities like Tokyo and Osaka, I think.
I don't remember the details. But here in China, they also went to Hong Kong SAR and Beijing and then Shanghai very recently.
We're talking about 14 to 16 years old teenagers sitting on stage american teenagers sitting on stage in beijing and playing classical music for their beijing listeners for over two hours two and a half hours yeah i can tell those kids they they're they're yawning of course they're they're it's about their bedtime but they managed to deliver their best And following Ray Chen, the very professional violinist, throughout the concerto that he was performing and just maintaining a very high stamina in finishing this very difficult concert.
And yeah, I just admire the fact that they're here and that they deliver such a great show for all of us here in Beijing.
Art really does connect us regardless of language, background.
That's true. And music being the universal language.
Sorry to, you know, sounds a little bit of a cliche, but it also just rings so true to our hearts.
Yeah. And when the art is gorgeous, it could be four or five hours and you'd be happy to sit there and watch the whole thing.
Yeah, certainly for me. Yeah, that's the case.
I would prefer to have a little break intermission in the middle.
Get some popcorn or something. Go to the bathroom.
Popcorn, excuse me. What do you eat at a classical concert?
I've obviously never been. Something that's quiet.
And I know they don't allow drinks in, actually.
But anyhow, that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
Thank you so much, Steve Hatherly and Yushan for joining the show.
I'm He Young. We'll see you next time.
