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你好,欢迎收听随行汉语。 Welcome to Takeaway Chinese.
I'm Fei Fei, and joining me today in the studio is Steve Heatherly.
Hello, Steve.
Hi, Fei Fei.
How are you doing?
Great.
We're talking about a very, I would say, brand of China, porcelain.
Hmm.
Have you ever tried to make it?
Oh, yes, I have an extensive collection.
Of porcelain?
No, of course not.
LAUGHTER
I just don't know when you were joking or not.
Do you know, everybody knows about, I don't know why, I think it's because it appeared in movies maybe a lot, but everybody knows about Ming Vaz.
Yes.
And that is the theme of this episode is the basically the source city of the Mingvas.
It's actually from a city called Jingdezhen.
I'm not sure if you've heard about it before.
Jingdezhen.
I've never heard of it.
Where is it?
It's in Jiangxi province, and Jingdezhen is the place, 99% of the time, where this Ming vase was imported.
I think it must have been in the news a lot, maybe from, not a lot, but just like maybe from auctions.
Because the reason I know about that and the reason people know about that in the West is because Ming vases are always so, so expensive.
One thing is because it's antique.
The other thing is because it's really rare.
And also because of the design of it, it has the white as its base color and then have that bluish drawing on top of that.
And that is basically the signature design of any porcelain coming out from Jingdezhen.
Interesting.
And it's also why Jingdezhen is called the porcelain capital of China.
So even during the Ming Dynasty, Jingdezhen was the place where it was being produced.
And I didn't know this.
So with Ming vases, you can always tell because the base is white and then it's a blue painting on top.
Yeah, it's the signature of, but it's not all, every piece coming out of the Ming Dynasty was designed in the blue and white color.
It's just the ones coming out of Jingdezhen is kind of the signature ones.
It's also representable on some level of Chinese porcelain.
I see.
And that brings us to the core vocabulary of all the expression around porcelain, which is 瓷器.
瓷器.
Yes, 瓷器.
But when it comes to other things, I'm really not sure about the differences between porcelain and ceramics.
But in Chinese, it's 陶瓷.
陶瓷.
That's ceramics.
But when it comes to porcelain, it's 瓷器.
I bet it has something to do with the techniques, the making, maybe the materials behind the making of these products.
But I think for a lot of people, porcelains...
And ceramics and even pottery are some of the similar ideas because that's something you can have the hands-on experiences.
Yes, I've done that.
You've done pottery?
Well, no, see, that's kind of misleading.
I took one pottery class and I thought it was going to be like, do you know the movie Ghosts?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, as romantic as that.
Well, I wasn't thinking about the romance, but I just wanted to have the spinning thing.
And then I'm sitting there with my hands and they like slide up and down and you shape it.
Right.
I thought that's what I was going to do.
Yeah.
That is not what I did.
What did you do?
Well, I don't know if it was just this place or if it was just like lesson number one, but they bring you out like a rectangle of clay.
And it's already flattened out and everything.
It looks like...
It looks like cookie dough before you press the cookie cutter into it.
And then what I made was a flower pot.
So all I needed to do was to put something in the middle of it and then roll it.
And then I used like a knife to design whatever I wanted.
Oh.
So you don't have that spinning clay thing.
No, I asked immediately.
I said, where's the spinning thing?
Are we not doing that?
And they said, oh, no, that's for like people who know how to do that.
Oh.
And I said, oh.
That's the more professional technique.
Yeah.
That's what they said.
They said, oh, no, that's for.
And I was like, okay, well.
That's very disappointing.
Just give me my rectangle then, I guess.
Yeah, and also when it comes to the Chinese expression of that spinning of the clay, it's called la pi.
La pi.
And it was very confusing to me before when they're talking about pi in porcelain and ceramic making.
Why?
What's that character?
It's um i don't get what does p mean and then i realized that's basically the clay
Oh okay yeah yeah and that's the clay when you are trying to sort of build like what you did with that rectangle block
That's basically the P in porcelain making.
And when they are saying La Pi because it's spinning and they're sort of trying to do a lot of actions surrounding that piece of clay.
And that's what they call in the basically the first several stages of you making a porcelain.
I'm not giving up on that dream.
I would love to learn how to make something using that.
But I also asked them, like, oh, because they said, oh, no, that's what the, you know, pro...
Pro?
Is that the right word?
I don't know what the real artists do.
And I don't know if that's like years of learning or if that...
I bet it is.
Well, to make something successfully.
Yeah.
But I mean, anybody could just sit down there and fail, right?
Yeah.
Even the artists themselves, it's not like a one-time guaranteed success in making those clay actions.
Yeah.
But anyway, I'm not giving up on that.
I really want to try that out.
Maybe you can play with the rectangle block enough.
It just looks so peaceful, doesn't it?
I actually saw a video about a very young artist.
I think she lived in Canada.
She was trying to build her own pottery or porcelain studio.
Wow.
With her own design.
And she filmed her trying to do that Loppy action to have that spinning of clay.
It was very frustrating.
To get the shape right.
Yeah, because you can get things wrong so easily.
And it collapses on you.
Then you have to start over.
Start over again and she filmed her multiple times
You know having that frustration moment having to fold the clay back into his original
Maybe it's not peaceful
It's not as peaceful it's anger inducing
At least not as peaceful and romantic as what the movie showed.
But, you know, when it comes to the history of Jingdezhen, and I checked it before the show, which is very interestingly, because in the beginning part of Chinese porcelain history,
Jingdezhen was not really on the list of one of the famous places for producing porcelains.
It was mostly, you know, in the Song Dynasty that was around 1000 years ago.
We call them the kiln or in Chinese is Yao, which is much simpler kiln.
And I encourage people.
You're now teaching me English and Chinese.
Because it's porcelain making.
What's it called in Chinese?
It's yao.
Yao.
But before Jingdezhen became really famous, we normally, a lot of Chinese people would refer to different yaos in China as the basis of different design of porcelains.
Hmm.
And at that time, more than 1,000 years ago, most of the porcelain were only produced for the royal family, for the imperial family.
So Jing Dezhen at that time was kind of famous, but only among the ordinary people, among the civil society.
So it was a place that was not known for producing art at all.
Yeah, I think at that time, more than around 2,000 years ago, Jingdezhen started to produce their own porcelain, but that's mostly facing the general public.
Oh, it was porcelain for the public.
Yeah, for the public.
It was only around the Yuan Dynasty, you know, the dynasty before the Ming period, that Jingdezhen rose to fame.
And also because of the trade, because a lot of the porcelain were exported to outside of China.
Was the Ming Dynasty the one that was the most artistic?
For Jingdezhen.
For porcelain.
Yeah, for Jingdezhen's porcelain.
That's the time when it started to climb to the top of porcelain making in China, both in artistic and also in production.
Interesting.
So that's basically a little brief history when it comes to the porcelain coming out of Jingdezhen.
And that's why it's called the porcelain capital.
瓷器之都 瓷器之都 之都 is capital.
都 is capital.
之 is capital.
Of.
Of.
Yeah.
Thank you for teaching me Chinese.
But it has a history of more than 2000 years.
And the white and blue design was the design that most people outside of China known about Jingdezhen.
And I guess it's what the people in the Ming Dynasty, maybe the emperor, maybe that's the design that was most popular or the colors that were most popular.
Yeah, I think it was the invention at that time, you know, before Jingdezhen's design of that blue and white.
I think the imperial family, at least, they want the color to be very subtle, almost like a greenish, very light greenish color.
Okay, like a light green.
Yeah, very light greenish color.
Is that culture related or is that just personal preference?
I think both.
I think both.
Because when it comes to imperial family, they all have their own different personal preferences.
Because fast forward to the dynasty after the Ming period.
Very interestingly, you can start to see the different prefaces coming out from different emperors.
For example, one particular emperor is more of a minimalist, that he likes design that's very simple.
But the other one, for example, Qianlong, just enjoy having everything on his bus, like the flowers, the birds, the plants, the skies, the moons, the suns, and different figures of people.
That's basically shown, you know, different preferences of emperors.
But fast forward to now, I think what's also making Jingdezhen still very special is still have that culture of porcelain making and even attracting a lot of young people and artists actually that they want to start their own studio in Jingdezhen.
And to explore not only the materials, the history, you know, the design and talking with different Yao owners, Yao manufacturers, and design their own very modern porcelain art.
It must be very competitive, I would think.
Because if you're going to go to that city as a porcelain artist...
That's like the place to be.
Yeah.
It would be like going to Hollywood to become an actor.
All of the artists who go to...
The best of the best.
Right.
So all of the artists who go to this city are going to be aspiring to be great, of course, but they...
That's true for every other artist who's going there, too.
Yeah, that can be very competitive.
But also that means that's the place where you can have a lot of opportunities because you can talk to your peer artists.
You can talk to the masters behind the traditional techniques surrounding Jingdezhen's porcelain making.
Yeah.
And, you know, the Canadian artist introduced before that she also went to Jingdezhen to sort of want to look for the next inspiration, the next techniques when it comes to porcelain making.
So with the porcelain, it's very, it's thin, right?
It's thinner than the clay...
You mean pottery?
Yeah.
陶器.
陶器.
Which is pottery.
Yeah.
Well, it depends.
It depends on the design.
It can be as thin as paper.
I remember being on one of the exhibits here in Beijing showing a lot of different designs of porcelains.
And one of the, I won't say it's a statue, but the artwork shown there is a stack of paper.
It's made of porcelain.
Oh, really?
You can just see the stack of paper exactly like that from a distance.
That's really cool.
You know, when I go to museums, usually I'm a little bored.
But one thing that I really like is looking at art from a long time ago.
And I went to the Forbidden City.
And I don't know the dynasties that the vases came from.
But there's a section of the Forbidden City that's kind of like a museum, kind of.
And the art in there is gorgeous.
You mean the porcelain?
Yeah.
Well, I'm not an expert and I don't really know what I'm looking at when I look at it.
But it's just the different vases of different sizes and shapes.
And they're just so beautiful.
I mean, when it's beautiful, you know, regardless of, you know, all the history and, you know, meaning behind it.
If it's a beautiful thing, you start to appreciate.
And I think you would be enjoying yourself if you visit Jingdezhen, Steve...
Because they also have like a China, Jingdezhen China Ceramic Museum.
It's also one of China's largest ceramic museums.
Oh, wow.
That must be cool.
Yeah, showing the 2,000 years of porcelain history in Jingdezhen and also in China.
And also showing the differences between the imperial porcelain and the public, you know, the porcelain facing the general public, and also the modern ceramic art, which can take in different forms.
We have mugs,
I think I've bought a lot of cups.
I was obsessed with buying a lot of teacups coming out from Jingdezhen at one time.
This may be a stupid question.
From Jingdezhen, can you like go on Jingdong and just order?
Yeah.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
That's why it's still called the capital, the porcelain capital of China, because not only has this long history having a lot of ancient Qion, ancient Gu Yao, they are also showing, attracting a lot of even Gen Zers.
Going there, not only for a short time travel, but also for a long time stay, like starting their own studios or just have like a hands on experiences about the spinning of clay.
It's cool that you can just order it and have it shipped anywhere in the country.
It would make a great gift, I think, for anyone who's coming in.
From you know outside of china to visit china and they want to think about what to bring home as a gift for their you know friends or family
That would be a good gift and the fact that you can order it you wouldn't even have to visit the city you can
Visit beijing and if you're here for a week you can just order it from the city and then have it delivered to your hotel or something and take it home with you
Yeah and they have all the wrappings for you because you don't have to worry about having them broken along the shipping so on and so forth
Would you buy like a set of something porcelain making for your family
I think I would, yeah, because it's just got the story behind it, right?
Like Jingdezhen was the place during the Ming Dynasty that was the Ming vases that came from this city, became world famous because of the story that comes with it.
If it was just like...
A piece of pottery, probably not, but because you've got the story of the city behind it and its connection to the Ming Dynasty, I think that's very cool.
But I would encourage you to visit Jingdezhen regardless.
You've been there before?
No, I haven't been to Jingdezhen myself, but I've been to another city that's also very famous for its own porcelain history.
What's that called?
Which is called Dehua.
Dehua?
Yeah, it's in Fujian province and is known for producing white porcelain, pure white, very beautiful.
And also when it comes to the Fujian province, they have their own tea cultures.
And so they produce a lot of tea surrounding the tea culture porcelain, like teacups and teapots.
Is there like a big competition between those two regions about whose porcelain is the best?
I think in history, I bet they have this kind of competition.
I bet so.
Yeah, but when it comes to Dehua, they are also a port city.
So when we're talking about trading in ancient times of the porcelain coming out of Jingdezhen, because Jingdezhen was located in the inland areas, they would ship their porcelain to the city near Dehua and then ship them outside of China to everywhere else in the world.
And yeah, that's a very interesting period of time.
And also very, I think famously, that's where China got his English name from.
You know, when people start to talk about China, define China and the country China.
It's the same word, right?
Yes, yes, yes.
That's because one of China's brands in ancient times was built on porcelain.
So this has been around and this has been well established for a long time.
And even in 2026, those cities, those areas continue to be the porcelain capitals of the country.
Yeah, not only for the porcelain makers themselves, but also for a lot of young people, because when you go to an artistic town like Jingdezhen, you want to experience the slow life, the very artistic life, which is when it comes to slow life in Chinese is 慢生活.
Yeah, 慢 meaning slow, and life is 生活.
Yes, because they have a slower lifestyle, especially compared with big cities like Beijing, where you need to be very fast-paced.
And so when it comes to porcelain making, I think when it comes to playing with that dough of clay, playing with that lapi, with the spinning of the clay, for a lot of young people is also a very relaxing and therapeutical experiences.
I'm not sure with you, when you are playing with that rectangle block of clay...
Would you be considered to be a period of time that you are able to concentrate only on that piece of clay and slow down and relax?
Or is it on the other side?
No, I would say it was an enjoyable experience.
It wasn't the experience I was hoping to have, but still, I felt like a kid in art class in elementary school because there was a certain amount of creativity that was allowed.
And yeah, and then you got to paint it.
Which was pretty cool too.
So I had a really fun experience with that.
And I think obviously the better you get at doing it, you keep going back and you keep improving your skills, the more enjoyable it would be.
And I mean, if you get good at that, you don't even have to think about what to get people for their birthday.
Oh, and also very thoughtful gift.
I made it myself.
Exactly.
And even though the design could be looking like a bit silly, a bit childish.
Um, but I think that's also as on to the value behind that gift.
It might only work once though.
Cause I was just thinking like, if you give your husband.
Or your wife, like the first anniversary, you're like, I took some pottery classes and I made this for you.
And they would feel like, wow, that's amazing.
And then the next year, if you said, remember that pottery class I took?
Yeah, I also made this for you.
But it's better now this time.
I don't know if it would carry.
They will have a line of ceramic cups, vases.
23 flower pots representing all 23 years we've been married.
And having I love you on each one.
Yeah.
Of the bowls.
That would be hilarious.
But it would still be a way to express yourself.
I mean, when you're designing that, you can have a flower if you want to.
You can also design a bird on it if you're really good at it.
So that's why I think for a lot of young people, they want to go to Jingdezhen and have that hands-on experiences to make pottery, to make ceramics and porcelains themselves.
And also for Jingdezhen, they have this migratory bird projects that are attracting a lot of young people, especially young artists.
I think more than 3000 artists from over 50 countries and regions each year for artist residency.
So they can come to learn the wheel throwing.
They can paint their own traditional blue and white porcelain and experiment with the glaze.
Because when it comes to glaze, it's also very important in porcelain making, which is a Shang You.
Shang You.
Yeah, which is the process of applying a liquid glass coating before you're firing it.
Gives it that mirror kind of look to it.
Yeah.
And even today, I've also seen some porcelain produced today that's almost look identical to jade.
Of that particular color green.
That texture of having that glass-like coating outside and almost like transparent but not transparent.
So I think it has to be, may have something to do with the glazing, the Shang-Yu techniques behind glazing.
But that is the techniques that people are going with for ceramic and porcelain making is very amazing.
Really cool.
I love that the artists can do a residency there too, like a program.
Yeah, yeah.
And also that was also making, you know, porcelain and a lot of these kind of arts very unique, no matter in history or in modern days is that it's not only about expressing the artist itself, it's not only about building artwork.
Is also promoting like cultural exchanges, exchanges among people, really.
Because when you have 50 artists coming out from 50 different countries and regions around the world,
And you start to communicating with one another, building your own community and also learning about the local culture there.
And not only learning about porcelain in Jingdezhen, but also experiencing the food there.
Because when it comes to Jiangxi province, they're known for having very, very spicy food.
How is that different?
I'm not joking.
Oh, my gosh.
I had a hot pot the other night.
I couldn't even eat it.
Because it's too spicy?
Yep.
Is it a Chongqing style?
Yep.
It was a Sichuan hot pot place.
And it was hotter.
We're in Beijing.
It was hotter than I had in Sichuan province.
And you order, because they also offer different levels of spiciness.
Yes, I ordered the hottest one.
You want to challenge yourself a little bit.
Well, in Chongqing, they told me we gave you the hottest one.
And now I'm thinking they were lying.
Yeah.
They just tried to make me feel good because I had like seven bites of this and I couldn't eat anymore.
It was unbelievable.
So is that food in this province hotter than Sichuan province?
Yeah, when it comes to the spiciness.
Really?
That's my judgment.
Really?
Yeah, because when it comes to Chengdu, they also have that numbing incorporated with the spiciness.
So it's kind of more complex.
But when it comes to Jiangxi, they just throw in different kinds of chilies inside.
Just whatever.
Yeah, it's a red dish.
Okay.
Everywhere you go.
But I bet they want to have a competition between people in Jiangxi and people coming from Sichuan to see who can tolerate the spiciness.
And that would be a fun challenge to watch and listen to.
And that brings us to the end of today's Takeaway Chinese episode.
I'm Feifei with Steve Heatherly here in the studio.
For more episodes of the show, you can visit our website at radio.cgtn.com and go to the column podcast.
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I'm Fei Fei, and thank you, Steve, for joining me today for Takeaway Chinese.
Bye.
