Hi, Matt here.
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To truly hone and develop your communication, you have to introspect, reflect, seek feedback
and integrate all of that information to improve.
I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talks Mart, the podcast.
Today I am super excited to chat with Celine Tio.
Celine is a facilitator of the GSB's famous interpersonal dynamics course.
She's a CEO coach and a GSB graduate.
I'm Celine.
I so look forward to our conversation.
I'm looking forward to this as well, Matt.
I'm excited.
Excellent.
Well, let's go ahead and get started.
I'd like to start with the interpersonal dynamics course that you help facilitate.
It's also known as Touchy Feely.
And you and others help run that course.
Can you remind our listeners what the course is about, how it works, and share maybe two
key takeaways from it?
Of course, interpersonal dynamics is the most popular elective at the Stanford GSB.
It's really about teaching people how to be effective interpersonal communicators and how
to do so both at work as well as in their personal lives.
How it works.
Well one example I can bring to you is when I was a student and MBA at the GSB, one exercise
that we ran in Touchy Feely is notorious, it's known as the influence line, where other
students have to rank you according to how influential you are to them.
And consistently I wound up in the bottom half of everyone's influence line.
And I was devastated.
Here I was, a new immigrant to the United States, female, Asian.
And I couldn't understand why I was at the bottom of the influence line.
So I felt sad, I felt disappointed in myself, I felt hard done by, resentful.
And normally what I would do would be to disengage and say, you know what?
You don't think I'm influential?
I'm stepping out.
But what's great about this course is it encourages you to reengage.
And so I dug into the feedback, got insights from other people as to why I was coming across
that way. And as a result, change the way I behave when I'm in American contexts.
What's great about that is that I diversify the range of behaviors that I bring to bear.
So when I'm in the States, I come across with a little bit more emotion and more animation.
And when I'm in Asia, I can come across with like less amplitude.
And I have this range of behaviors now I can pick and choose from.
And I have agency.
So that's what interpersonal dynamics does.
It's a phenomenal course.
And one of the strengths I think of the course is that it really helps people as you shared
in your story to really learn about themselves and to learn about themselves in a very direct
way, not mean, but to learn about themselves.
And then as you said, to develop a sense of agency to make those changes that are needed.
And thank you for sharing that.
In all of our interactions, you are certainly influential in my book.
You would be at the top of my line.
So thank you for that.
Thank you, Matt.
I'd love for you to share how all of us can be a little bit more touchy-feely, if you
will, when we work in organizations or corporate cultures that emphasize logic and action.
What can we do to be more empathetic and connected to those environments?
One of the things I will say is I'll repeat advice that David Bradford, one of the key
developers of the touchy-feely course, told me when I was actually chair of the Stanford
Alumni Consulting Team.
I asked him, David, how do you bring touchy-feely to organizations?
And he said, stealth it in with a check-in.
And this is how you do it.
You go around the room in any meeting and everybody says one feeling word, how you're feeling
today and one sentence as to why.
The reason why you do that is because it creates the space for someone to say, here's what's
going on with me outside work.
Now, what happens is you no longer have the sales team talking to the marketing team.
No, you have a parent talking to another parent or you have a caregiver talking to another
caregiver.
You have more hooks, more chances for people to connect with each other.
When I do my work as a CEO coach with startups, a lot of the CEOs tell me, Celine, that'll
take too long.
But honestly, five minutes I guarantee you, five minutes is all it takes.
And then on top of that, many of them will tell me, Celine, I can't say the word feelings
in my organization.
We're a bunch of coders.
That word is not okay.
And what I tell them is, okay, don't say feelings.
Instead, use a prompt like, what was one good thing that happened to you today?
What was one bad thing that happened to you today?
What's keeping you up at night?
And then over time, you can slowly, slowly increase the vulnerability and the range of
emotions that you're allowing people to bring in.
I love the advice and thank you again for the specific examples about how we can start
with something as simple as just begin by checking in with each other.
And in fact, doing so can warn people up and get the conversation going.
And it doesn't always have to be about an emotion.
And I loved what you said about how it changes our relationship.
So I'm no longer my functional role, talking to your functional role, where two people
communicating in that immediacy and connection.
I can see brings a lot of value.
Are there other bits of advice that you have or experiences you have as a facilitator of
interpersonal dynamics or in your own private practice that can really help connect people
together, are there things we can do or say that can help with that?
I think there are two things I would recommend.
One is to be very clear about what you're feeling because feelings are data.
And in the rest of our logical lives, we would never make decisions on bad or highly abstract
data.
But we'll do that with feelings.
We'll just say, I'm feeling sad, mad or glad.
But that's not detailed enough.
So what I like to recommend is for people to actually take a page from Carol Robbins'
book, Connect.
In the back of that appendix, you'll actually see a feelings chart.
Carry that feelings chart around and check in at the beginning of meetings, at the end
of meetings and say, how am I feeling right now at a granular level?
As an example, before our chat today, I've listened to this podcast since the very beginning.
I love it.
And so as a result, before I came in today, I was excited.
I was glad I was anticipatory, but I was also nervous.
And so what did I do with that?
I decided I would go for a walk, get some of those nerves out.
I would practice my vocal exercises.
And then I decided to reframe you and I will have a wonderful conversation.
And I think it makes for just a much more fun interaction than if I were just, I'm just
nervous.
Absolutely.
So certainly no need to be nervous here.
And I too was very much looking forward to this.
So again, I hear the advice much like you give to our students is you really have to reflect
on yourself where you're at and take that as information input and data from which you
can then act.
And I think you're exactly right.
In thinking about my own life, when I look at my emotional state, I'll just label it.
I won't actually go much deeper.
And I think that's really important because then you can take action.
If I just say I'm nervous, but if I think more about that nervousness and how I can address
it, then I can do something about it.
So I like how the reflection leads to data that can lead to action.
Exactly.
Very helpful, very helpful.
I'm love to get your thoughts and advice on how do you manage challenges and issues and
disagreement at work when you're confrontational rather than collaborative?
Hmm.
I would say it's all about empathy.
Related is magnetic. It draws attention.
Whenever we encounter conflict, our attention tends to go to this narrow focus point that
is the conflict alone.
I like to encourage my clients to expand their perspective and think about the relationship
as a whole as a container.
And then go to Godman's research that we also reference in interpersonal dynamics.
Godman found out that there's a five to one magic ratio of positive interactions to
negative interactions in successful relationships.
So my advice is build your emotional piggy bank by depositing those five good interactions
in before you have the conflict.
Build that.
And then even in the conflict, continue depositing those positive interactions in as a way of
making sure that your conflicts go well because you're demonstrating good intent.
You're demonstrating that the relationship's important to you.
And these positive interactions can be really small.
They could be a smile and eye meat.
They could be a pat on the shoulder.
They could be a nod of the head.
It's easy, but we forget.
I forget.
Yes.
I certainly am familiar with Godman's work in this notion of storing up positive interaction
and I see this in my interactions with my kids.
There's a lot that I try to actively acknowledge the successes as a parent.
It can be very easy to focus on the things you'd like to change or advice you'd like to
give.
So I consciously try when positive accolades or praise are appropriate to give that knowing
not only that will help in the moment, but it might help me in those times where I have
to give negative feedback or have a conflictual situation.
That's huge, Matt.
I love that you're doing this with your family.
And even at work, we have Slack channels called Celebration where people I encourage to
drop in and just celebrate somebody else for something they did.
Or at the end of meetings, we'll actually have breakout rooms where we'll put two people
in together and celebrate each other.
That's really fabulous how that can help people.
And I begin to think back to when you talked about ways to bring empathy and feeling into
organizations with a check-in at the beginning.
Some kind of gratitude or celebration at the ending might be a really nice way to round
out an interaction or meeting.
They're nice bookends.
That's right.
That's perfect.
For those of our listeners who are looking to enhance their home, their empathy, feedback,
and communication skills, what advice and guidance would you give them based on your
experience?
I would recommend asking.
So the reason why I say that is, all of us here setting in Silicon Valley, business
types, we tend to have advice monsters.
We like to give advice.
And what I'd encourage people to do instead is to ask, do you need support or advice
right now?
And you'd be surprised a number of times people say, I actually know what I need to do.
I don't need your advice.
I just want someone to commiserate with me.
So do that.
Ask first.
We assume people need advice, but that's not necessarily always the case.
And the support component gives us a chance to connect with the other person.
Yeah, totally get it.
My wife and I have a lot of conversations around this issue as a professor, as somebody giving
advice is something that I do as a reflex and listening and understanding if support
is needed is really important.
I actually think, and this is a little bit true for myself, that giving advice is a way
to hide behind the advice so you don't actually have to connect and engage.
And I'm wondering if you find that to be true and have any advice on how to have that
confidence to be vulnerable to, I'm here to support you, but I don't quite know how to
do that or what's needed in the moment.
It's much easier for me to say, oh, just go do this.
Yes, of course.
Before I answer that question, I'll actually agree with you on that and also say that
advice giving is distancing because it puts us in a position of superiority.
It assumes that we know the answer and, hey, Matt, I can fix you.
Just do this.
You know, it's distancing.
And so my recommendation is actually to tip toe into it by sometimes even just knowing
that phrase, do you want support or advice right now?
Just practicing that because once you can say that, your response depends on what the
other person says and they will guide you as to what they need.
So just ask.
I think putting yourself in a place where you can just be receptive is hard but very useful
and have seen that play out very successfully many times in my life.
So thank you for that.
So Selene, before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone
who joins me.
Are you up for that?
Yes.
Alright.
Excellent.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever received as a five to
seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?
It would be people will remember how you made them feel.
That's by Maya Angelou.
Absolutely.
Tell me more about why that's so important for you.
Because it's not about the words.
It's about how people feel inside.
That's how you persuade, that's how you connect.
That's who we are.
We're emotional beings.
I think that's exactly right and we need to think about how we impact people on an emotional
level.
I think we do a disservice when we think about our communication is only information transfer.
It is clearly emotion transfer as well and we need to bring those two into balance and
that quote is very helpful to remind us of that.
I love that phrase, emotional transfer.
There you go.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
I think Steve Jobs comes to mind.
He used passion, simplicity, storytelling to be memorable and so much emotion.
Absolutely.
The thing I like about Steve Jobs in terms of his communication is he worked really hard
on it.
He was very good at it, had lots of natural talent, but he worked hard tirelessly to improve
and hone and he also made sure to focus the message in a very concise, clear audience
centric way.
I agree, lots of good things to learn there.
So much hard work underpinning what looked effortless.
Isn't that amazing?
I think that's a great lesson for all of us to remember is that practice and preparation
can make things easier and look easier.
Question number three.
After the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe.
I think listening to understand, finding commonality and connecting through feelings.
So connecting through feelings, I see absolutely from what we've talked about.
Talk to me about listening to understand.
I think that's bound up with empathy, right?
You can't really communicate if you don't understand what it is your audience is looking
for, your counterpart is looking for what they care about.
Be focused too much on ourselves.
Yeah, and I feel like people and myself included when I listen, I'm listening for the hooks
that give me what I want to say next or help me get to the next place and not necessarily
reflecting on what this means for the other person and potentially for this relationship
interaction, etc.
So I like that idea of listening to understand.
It ties back to what you said about practice.
Conceptually it's an easy concept, but it's really hard to do because you have to let go
so much of your own agenda.
Yeah, you have to quiet your mind and really be present and for a lot of us that's hard.
Celine, thank you so much.
This was a true pleasure to chat with you.
This notion of really respecting our feelings and embracing them and looking at ways to really
understand ourselves so that we can bring our more whole self and emotional self to our
interactions, our communication is absolutely important.
So thank you for the lessons.
Thank you for your time and thank you for sharing important information with all of us.
Thank you Matt.
Pleasure was all mine.
Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast from
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music was provided by Floyd Wander.
For more information and episodes, find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thank you and please make sure to subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn.
Thank you.
