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Hi everyone, it's Tori.
We hope you've had an amazing summer.
Before we start our new regular episodes on Monday, we wanted to offer this bonus convos that first aired a year ago because it offers great advice for kids heading back to school.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
What we found is that in third grade, about 75% of kids love school, which is a very good proxy for engagement.
And by 10th grade, 25% of kids say they love school.
So there's this real dramatic drop off.
Welcome to Kid News Convos.
I'm Tori.
And today we're having a fascinating conversation with Jenny Anderson, award-winning journalist and co-author of the book, The Disengaged Teen, helping kids learn better, feel better, and live better.
It's about why kids lose interest in learning and how to regain that spark of curiosity.
And it's surely timely advice at the start of the school year.
Thank you, Jenny, for joining us.
It's great to have you here.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
So your book, The Disengaged Teen, what do you mean when you describe teens as disengaged?
We set out to try to answer the question why so many kids were struggling in school, why they found it hard, why they found it boring, and why were some of the reasons they kind of checked out.
That is what we mean by disengaged.
So sometimes you check out because you're overwhelmed.
Sometimes you check out because you're super bored.
Sometimes you check out because you're upset about something that's going on.
Um so much of learning is invisible and so we were really trying to understand what are some of the reasons
We wanted to talk to young people and say what's happening in your classrooms and your homes and your friendship groups and your life
Your sports and your clubs, you know, what's happening that makes you turn on to learning and get in there and get super excited and what happens to turn you off.
And so disengagement is like a wonky term for kind of checking out of your learning.
And is there an age when kids start to get disengaged?
Yeah, so we did a lot of research for this book, like surveyed 75,000 kids and 2,000 parents and
Talk to a lot of young people themselves, follow them for three years.
And what we found is that in third grade, about 75% of kids love school.
They tell us they love school, which is a very good proxy for engagement.
It's not perfect, but it's a pretty good sort of measure.
And by 10th grade, 25% of kids say they love school.
So there's this real dramatic drop off and it really the cusp is middle school.
So I think when you go from that environment of a classroom where you're seen and known and heard and it's
Quite frankly developed to understand that there's a lot of things happening
You're developing as a friend and as a learner and as a individual and a community member into middle school and high school where you're shuffling around going to all your classes and it's exciting and great and so exciting to get that independence
And sometimes kids feel like they get a little bit lost in the shuffle and it becomes
More anonymous and they're not as well known and they don't have as many people to go to.
And you know, middle school is just hard.
So that seems to be the point at which we really do sometimes lose a lot of kids and we just need to kind of get in there and get them the right supports.
Is that the main cause of the disengagement is, is going from that small individual classroom or are there other factors?
Yeah, no, there's definitely other factors.
So the number one thing kids tell us is relevance.
They don't feel like what they're learning is relevant.
They can't quite see the reason.
And I think the exciting thing is, is there is a lot of good reasons.
So we learn the things we do.
I think educators like the education community and parents don't always do a great job of explaining the why.
Why am I learning algebra?
Why am I learning science?
Some of it's kind of obvious, but really tying that to this matters in the real world.
This stuff is important in the real world.
Knowledge really matters in the real world.
To become a good thinker, you need to know stuff.
And so sometimes that learning stuff is boring and sometimes it's hard, but none of those signals, this is boring or this is hard, should be a signal to stop.
And I think sometimes it does become a signal.
So relevance is a really big one.
Sometimes mental health challenges or emotional challenges.
You're having a fight with your best friend.
Like you're not feeling it.
Hard to learn that day.
Totally fine.
Just, you know, recognizing that when there's holes, you got to fill in and sometimes you have to advocate for yourself.
Those are two really big causes.
And then there's a concept in education that we love so much.
It's called the zone of proximal development, which is there is a learning sweet spot.
This was developed by a Soviet psychologist named Lev Vygotsky.
There's like a sweet spot of learning where kids are stretched, the expectations are high enough, but they have enough support that they will take risks on behalf of their learning.
When kids are in that zone, amazing things happen.
High goal, lots of support.
If kids aren't in that zone,
They struggle.
So the number kind of number three reason that you see that kids disengaged is they're either bored to tears.
The content is just too easy or it's too hard and they're overwhelmed and they haven't quite figured out how to ask for help.
And it's really hard in middle school in particular to ask for help.
You don't, you know, your peers are watching you or you feel like your peers are watching you.
Haven't quite figured out those adult relationships
Teachers are still quite authoritative and so a lot of what we talked about in the book is how to ask for help and where to find that support and how to talk to your parents about when you're a little bit underwhelmed or overwhelmed, like some kids are afraid to say they're underwhelmed because they don't really
Want to get more work, which makes sense.
But if you're bored for too long, you can check out of your learning.
So those are some of the common reasons.
Okay.
Those are really helpful.
And you talk about in your book kind of four different modes of learners, which I assume since we're all individual, so it's not like
There's one blank solution that's going to apply to everybody.
So I assume you need to figure out what type of learner you are, and then you can figure out how to get hit that sweet spot.
Sure.
And I will be, I think you just nailed it so beautifully.
These are not labels or not ways of pigeonholing kids or saying, I am this.
Kids are all of the, like, we are all, all of these things all of the time.
We're really influenced by our environment.
And the goal in knowing them is to be able to sort of decide where you are and where you want to be.
So it's a sort of
What we call a metacognitive strategy
So the four modes are passenger mode where you're coasting along doing the bare minimum
You kind of show up not causing any problems but you're not really learning because you're not really digging in
Um resistor mode that's kids who are acting out and withdrawing
They're like
This is not working for me
I am not part of this game
I am not happy
Uh that doesn't always come out constructively um but typically there's something that's driving that behavior
So like those are typically dubbed in classes the problem kids
We argue they're kids with problems
We really have to get to the
What's driving that behavior achiever mode.
This is a really tricky one.
These are kids who love to get gold stars and everything put in front of them.
They do really well.
And it seems like they're the sort of gold star students, but they don't often ask themselves like what they care about.
And they sometimes become a little fragile as learners because they're afraid of getting things wrong.
And obviously a huge amount of learning is making mistakes and messing up and so you have to be okay taking a few risks and also developing your own curiosity
And the fourth one is explore
That's kind of the pinnacle of the mountain
These are kids who really advocate for themselves in their learning.
I love tornadoes.
I want to learn more about tornadoes.
I want to dig into tornadoes.
No, we have to move on.
No, but I love tornadoes.
Teach me more.
I want to learn more.
So that curiosity, which sometimes can get a little squished in the classroom because there's a lot to get through, at home, we can really lean into that, right?
It's tougher for teachers, 25 kids, 30 kids to really manage that.
But at home as parents, we can see those interests and that curiosity and lean into that in a big way.
And that really develops some profound learning muscles.
We're going to take a quick break.
When we come back, how parents can help encourage their kids' curiosity and the one very simple thing that any kid can do to get more engaged in school.
More Kid News Convos right after this.
Today's Kid News Convos episode is brought to you in part by a generous grant from the Nicholas B. Ottaway Foundation, committed to improving communities and impacting lives through three unique philanthropic efforts focused on education, journalism, and community impact.
We are grateful for their support and the support of all our generous donors.
And we're back with more Kid News Convos.
I'm Tori, talking with Jenny Anderson, co-author, along with Rebecca Winthrop, of The Disengaged Teen, helping kids learn better, feel better, and live better.
So Jenny, how can parents help encourage their kids' curiosity?
Yeah, so modeling the thrill of curiosity is huge.
There's this beautiful quote by an author named Ian Leslie, where he says curiosity is contagious.
And so is in curiosity.
So it does not hurt at all to be curious, to be a learner, to be vulnerable.
I love talking to my kids.
I remember telling my kids about when I had to have a correction printed in the New York Times and they thought I was going to get fired.
And I was like, so adults also make errors and you own it and you're responsible for it.
It doesn't feel good.
And the, you know, the sun came up the next day and you really learn and you move on.
And that's one thing really leaning into their interests.
This sounds crazy, but sometimes when kids aren't performing well in school, we take away the things that they love because we think like you got to focus on the academics.
The truth is, and we all know this, like you can't make a kid love learning or be good at learning.
What you need to do is really help them get energy around their learning.
So if there's a thing they love, obviously there have to be consequences for bad behavior.
I'm not saying sort of let it all go, but really
If there's a thing they love, lean into that.
Be interested in the things they're interested in.
And that will open the door for you to have a much different conversation maybe around what's happening at school.
So it's really about getting that door open, very nonjudgmental conversations about what's happening in learning spaces.
And the number one way to do that is to lean into their interests and not out.
So don't take away the sports when they love sports so much, but they're not studying, like get into the sports space and then start to draw the boundaries around what you need to see in the learning space.
Yeah, that's a really good example of, you know, because sometimes you think sports is a waste of time, but there can be some, you know, some positive learning experiences with it, statistics or social impact.
Yeah, that type of thing.
I love one of the statements in your book description is adolescents are
Hardwired to explore and grow and learning is how they do this.
But learning, as you said, also means failing sometimes.
And it seems like these days people, kids are
And the adults too are afraid to fail.
And I love this quote.
I just happened to find from Thomas Edison, who I was invented the light bulb.
And he said, I have not failed.
I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
So it was a great quote.
Yes.
And we it feels I do feel like sometimes it feels certainly to young people.
And they told us this in spades that the stakes feel so high.
And in some ways, you know, we say in the book, there's an expression, you know, life's not a dress rehearsal.
We say that to adults for kids and teens, it is literally a dress rehearsal.
Of course you're trying on identities.
You're trying on interests.
You're testing things out.
And things do not always go beautifully.
And that is okay.
And we as parents really have to make that okay.
The C plus comes home.
That is not the end of sort of the 4.0.
What that is is a moment of reflection to, hey, what happened?
Let's talk about this.
I noticed you studied really hard.
It clearly didn't work.
That happens sometimes.
You study the wrong way.
That is so different than, oh, my God, you got a C plus.
The despair in your voice translates to them.
They feel it, they internalize it.
I genuinely think parents aren't trying to make things worse for kids, but weirdly meeting their parents' expectations has gotten harder over time.
So whether we mean to do that, you know, I think we do it from a place of love and maybe fear, but I think we really have to greet those moments with curiosity and Hey, let's problem solve.
What are we going to do next?
Cause the stakes.
Really, the stakes are never lower.
They will never be lower than they are now when they're kids.
And if we treat them like they're super high, think of what that does to a kid's ability to make mistakes and take risks, which you really want them to do when they're safe and at home and you can help them through that process.
So that is really that it's reinforcement learning is the wonky term for it.
Well, I'm glad that we have wonky terms because it's important to have some of those in a scientific conversation.
So as far as for kids, what can you do to tell kids if they're walking into the classroom to try and become more engaged?
Yeah.
Okay.
This is a really good challenge.
This is a really hard one, but I am going to say it and I'm going to be really unapologetic about it.
When you're confused, ask a question.
Find a way.
Maybe it's in a Google Doc.
Maybe it's on a piece of paper at the end of the day.
Maybe it's a way you communicate with your teacher.
But building that skill of asking a question is so profound.
If you are confused, it is often the case that a lot of people in your classroom are confused.
And so it is really hard, but it is the bravest thing you can do.
It is the
Best thing you can do for your learning and you are making it okay for other kids to also ask questions.
We were really surprised to learn that especially middle schoolers only ask questions when they know the answer.
They were very, very resolute about that.
And so I think just this ability to ask a question and
Rely on your parents.
Have conversations with your parents about your learning.
Tell them what you're doing when they ask you how was school and you say fine.
Everybody's disappointed with that answer.
So ask your parents to ask you better questions.
And also...
Try to come up with something that you really liked about your day and share it with your parents because it means the world to them to see something you're doing
So try to maybe every day think of one thing
There might be a lot of stuff that really stinks and it wasn't that interesting but maybe there was one or two things
Hang on to those
Write them into a book because that is a bit of a map
Of your interests and it's like the map of you
So start keeping track of what you notice what you like
Is there a kind of problem you do in math that you get excited about something you've done in science maybe something you read in english that you liked write a little note in your book
That whole it's a reflective thing that happens in your brain that reinforces the learning helps you understand who you are and what you love
And also provide some fun conversation with your parents.
I love that.
I think that's a wonderful message to end on.
And do you have a study guide also that's connected with your book?
We do have a study.
And so the disengageteam.com, there's a study guide on there.
We happily share it with everyone.
We love talking to parents and book clubs.
We love talking to students in particular.
We love hearing their experiences of learning.
So
Any school wants to set something up or a parent group, you know, we really do love the opportunity to talk to students, parents or teachers or schools, whatever about their learning.
And we've got lots of resources for that.
So go to the website and you can reach out to us there.
Okay.
And the website again is?
Thedisengageteam.com.
Okay.
Well, Jenny, this has been so great.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time and all the helpful information.
Thank you so much.
I love your, I love Kid News and I'm so happy for what you do.
And thank you for listening to Kid News Convos.
If you have any comments or feedback on this episode, please send us an email at wehearyou at kidnews.org.
And tune in on Monday for our regular Kid News episode with top news stories produced just for kids.
Have a great day.
