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I am the therapy gecko.
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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.
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Others say it's unleashing human potential.
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Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds.
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Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on.
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Hello everybody, I'm Gemma Speck and welcome back to The Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello, everybody.
Welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode, as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s.
Today's conversation is one that I've been wanting to have for a very long time because, if there is something
I would say all of us, if not a lot of us struggle with in our 20s.
It is this constant cycle of trying to become better, trying to break patterns, trying to stop doing things we know we shouldn't be doing and just somehow always ending back where we started.
Whether it is procrastination, whether it is phone addiction vaping drinking, I think we've all had a moment.
I've definitely had a moment where I've been like, this is the last time I'm ever doing this.
I'm quitting.
I'm done.
I'm going to become this disciplined, motivated person.
And it just doesn't work.
I don't think the problem is with us, if I'm being honest.
I think the problem is that we actually misunderstand the psychology behind why and how change actually works.
So today, we are going to do a deep dive into the science and the Not like a surface level plan.
We're going to go beyond discipline.
We're going to go beyond the basic advice and really get into it.
And we are bringing on a special guest for this episode.
She is a Harvard trained behavioral scientist.
She specializes in studying how change works.
She's a managing director at BCG.
She's the founder of the BCG Behavioral Science Lab.
This woman basically spends her entire day systematically breaking down human behavior.
She's also done some amazing TED Talks, some of which have been viewed over 8 million times.
She's written books.
She has a new book coming out.
She's written for Harvard Business Review, Forbes.
There's just so much that she's done.
And she is a fellow Australian.
Julia Dahl, welcome to The Psychology of Your 20s.
Gemma, thanks for having me.
I'm so excited.
Well, okay, I always do this where I just jump into a question.
The first question I need to ask though is, who are you?
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
I know I did like the resume rundown, but in your own words, who are you?
Well, you know exactly where I'm from now, and now so do your viewers and listeners.
I grew up in Australia and one of the important things to know about me is, after I was born in Byron Bay and then moved to Canberra, I became a debater.
I was a debate kid.
And so you might know this, but for anyone who doesn't think about competitive debate, as we have a big topic or a big question on the table,
There are two sides to the issue.
One team talks for it.
One team speaks against it.
And you go back and forth exchanging these ideas.
And I share that as a starting point to say that's where I became.
I think that was the first moment where I said oh,
Different people are different.
Like often, people believe really profoundly different things or behave totally differently in response to the same information.
And I think that starting point in lots of classrooms in Australia actually got me thinking about who are we really as people?
Like what do we want?
What do we want to be?
That's so interesting.
And so like.
From when you were a teenager, you were like.
Human behavior is just so fascinating to me.
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah.
And so one of the ways we say it is different people are different.
But another way to say it is... other people are so weird.
Everyone else is so strange.
And the more you say.
It might be quite interesting, it might be quite helpful to start to understand them which, when I went to university and then eventually came to the United States to go to graduate school, I was scratching over and over again at this question of what is with other people.
And of course, people who are saying to themselves, what is with other people?
There's usually something else going on there.
And what they really mean is, what's the deal with me?
Who am I?
What do I really want?
And I think that was the case for me.
Oh my God, really?
Yeah.
Did you...
So you went to the University of Sydney.
I sure did.
Which is where I recently lived and have a fond place in my heart.
What did you study at UCEDD?
You studied?
Economics and social science.
Economics and social science.
Same as me.
And I wrote my thesis, my undergraduate thesis on the economics of the luxury fashion industry.
Like why do people buy?
Why do people get attached emotionally to some brands and not others?
And that felt really, really meaningful to me at the time.
Yeah.
You look surprised.
No, I'm just like that.
You've set me off.
Let's do it.
Oh, no.
I was like oh, I could just go on like such a tangent of like asking you about this, because we've just done like all these episodes on like the psychology of personal style and micro trends.
And I've been reading so much about fashion psychology recently.
Do you know about enclosed cognition?
I promise to make this a small tangent.
Okay, I do, but you have to tell everybody else about it.
We've talked about it on a recent episode, basically how what you wear actually influences your emotions.
Exactly right.
Includes cognition is one of these tiny psychological concepts.
And the best way to understand it is what you wear influences how you think.
So not just what do other people think about you, but how you think.
And so one way to think about it is perhaps, if I'm wearing a very formal suit, that might lead me to be more structured in my thinking, for example, or more rigorous.
If I'm dressed really casually, perhaps that makes me more creative, more open, more expansive.
Did it change what you decided to wear?
Well, I'm actually looking at our outfits and people who are watching on Netflix will see we're basically wearing a version of the exact same outfit.
It is true.
I thought that too.
I know.
I saw you walk in and I was like, great choices.
But I'm like that's so interesting because obviously we've like emotionally set up for the same conversation.
Oh, matching.
I love that.
And we've got a nice crisp kind of nice white top, but not overly formal.
A nice slacks situation, but comfy and then cute.
Creative shoes.
Literally creative, fun shoes.
Oh, we're ready to do this.
Oh my gosh.
Wait, can I ask you one more question about your thesis that you did?
Please.
What was the most...
The thing that when you found out or when you discovered, you just couldn't stop telling people about why people buy luxury or why we make certain fashion or purchasing choices.
I think the thing is that people who choose to buy luxury goods or to buy one brand over another, it's not because they feel a connection with the brand.
It is because... having it, owning the thing is a part of who they are.
And one of the ways you know that is and people in your life who, for example, might buy luxury fashion and never wear it, But they have it and they know that they have it.
And so it feels very much like a part of their identity, part of who they are as a person or how they relate to one another, how they relate to the world.
Oh my goodness.
See, I have a friend who's like this.
She bought this beautiful bag for herself last year.
She works so hard.
And I asked her the other day, I was like, why do you never bring that out?
She's like, well, it's a bit too flashy.
But I feel like for her it was like well, I've gotten to this point where this is like a marker of success for women or for people that I know.
So I have to participate.
But then it also feels like contrary to my deeper identity.
This is so fascinating.
It's not quite me.
That's so interesting.
Also, I'm like thinking about what I'm wearing that I need to move on.
You can see, and I'm wearing like all one brand.
And when you were saying that, I was like, oh my gosh.
I just thought I really liked their clothes.
I'm that person.
Yeah, but maybe it's what they represent.
Could be.
Wow.
Okay.
Let's actually talk about what I brought you here to discuss.
What we came here to talk about.
Which we need to bring you back to just talk about fashion psychology.
Anytime.
Let's talk about... bad habits and where bad habits come from.
A good starting point might be to say There are no bad habits, or perhaps it's not very helpful to call something a bad habit and just condemn it right off the bat.
Of course, there are habits that are more or less destructive or damaging to our health or our relationships or the way we show up in the world.
But even then, just saying this is a bad habit is maybe not very helpful.
But what we can assume.
When someone says I have a bad habit vaping, not eating as healthily as I would like, not exercising as often as I might want to what they mean is There is something about the way I operate that I want to change.
So where do they come from?
One of my favorite things about the work that I do is I spend a lot of time talking to people about changing
So not just change, but how do I get better at changing?
And part of it is we're not totally sure psychologically about change.
People have really different reactions when you say, Do you want to change?
But if you say to someone, would you like to be better?
Almost everyone says, yeah, that's what I'm here to do.
I'm trying to be better.
So what's preventing us?
What's getting in the way of us actually being better?
There are basically three things, and they are environmental, tactical, and relational.
So an environmental cause of a bad habit might be something really basic like I live very far away from a place where I could safely exercise.
I don't have good quality access to healthy food that's affordable.
A relational one might be.
I have a set of friends who, when I go out with them, the night kind of spins out of control.
Very good example of a relational one.
And a tactical one might be, I just haven't set myself up in quite the right way.
And so Katie Milkman at Wharton, the University of Pennsylvania, has a great set of research on how do we create the tactical relationship conditions for us to be healthier, be better versions of ourselves.
And the most basic version of it is do I put my gym shoes, do I put my trainers by the door before I go to bed at night?
So then when I wake up, it's like, whoa, my sneakers are right there.
I don't have to look around for all of the clothes, shoes I need in order to go and exercise.
So I've created the right tactics for that to happen.
Where someone has a habit that they are seeking to change part of it is saying like Let's diagnose what's really going wrong here.
Have I got an environmental gap?
Do I have a relational gap or a set of relationships that are maybe taking me to places that I don't necessarily want to go?
Mm hmm.
Or do I just not have the right tactics?
I want to read more, but I never have a book handy.
I want to exercise more, but it seems like my clothes are always in the laundry.
These are things we can change relatively quickly.
I love this way of thinking about it.
When does it become a motivational problem?
And when does it become?
Maybe something bigger than all those things that, like environment tactics, people can't change?
Yeah.
One of the really dangerous things that can come from spending a lot of time thinking about your own psychology is assuming that anytime you don't live up to your own expectations, that's a problem of discipline or motivation, I think.
I'm just not disciplined enough.
I'm too lazy to be able to do the thing that I want to do.
And if instead you said to yourself, look, discipline and motivation, these are really finite.
Psychologists would say they're cognitively very expensive to maintain.
It takes a lot of effort. and to keep our goals and objectives at the very front of our mind.
And so if we can push ourselves a little bit beyond that and instead say what we should actually be trying to build all of the time is self-efficacy,
And I continue to think that self-efficacy is just one of the most underloved concepts in all of psychology.
And you of course know this.
But if anyone needed a quick definition, self-efficacy is basically your belief in your own capabilities, that if an obstacle comes up, your level of confidence that you will figure out a way around it, that you already have or could quickly acquire the resources to solve it.
Are you a Ted Lasso viewer?
Are you my favorite person?
Yes, of course I am a Ted Lasso viewer.
I have a multi-watch viewer.
Have you watched?
Wait, sorry, no.
Yes, talk to me about Ted Lasso.
So in the very first season of Ted Lasso there's a great line where Rebecca says to Ted do you believe in ghosts, Ted?
And he says, you know, I do.
But most of all, I just want them to believe in themselves.
And I think that's what self-efficacy is.
It's people believing in themselves, but also being surrounded by people who want them to believe in themselves.
And so if, instead of saying oh, I'm too lazy, I'm not disciplined enough, you can say do I actually have the self-efficacy that I need?
And you can also increase your own self-efficacy just by thinking about it.
The example I always think of with self-efficacy is somebody who's trying to quit drinking, right?
And if you go into the pub or you go into the bar and you already are thinking well, if I want to have a drink, I can't say no or like.
Will I be able to say no?
Will I be able to not do that?
Will I be able to cope with not drinking tonight?
And you don't have any backup plan.
You have no belief that you'll be able to, like you've kind of already lost.
And that's the same with any kind of behavioral change, right?
If you already are counting yourself out, if you're already like letting kind of doubt seep in.
I think that shows that self-efficacy kind of needs strengthening.
It needs a boost.
And as soon as you've started this negotiation with yourself of exactly, perhaps I will just have one or I'll wait for someone to ask me you're not taking a second to remind yourself.
You know I've done a lot of difficult things before.
I have overcome a lot of obstacles before, and if I can spend a moment bringing those to the forefront of my mind, perhaps even writing them down or talking to someone about them, both of which, we know, make a really big difference in your goal attainment
But even if I can just remind myself mentally, I've overcome very difficult things before our chance of success goes way up.
I love that.
We talk about that a lot of like.
I think you actually talk about it in your book of like setting.
Was it like an early win?
Exactly.
And the idea that you can, in very positive ways, trick yourself into change is extremely compelling to me.
And a couple of really easy tricks.
One is just reminding yourself of hard things that you have done before.
Or, for example, you're thinking about how might I exercise much more regularly.
Let's say that you're still in your home and you've got as far as putting your shoes on.
Even just saying to yourself, well, I'm 20% of the way there now.
I've got my shoes on.
I've got a podcast queued up.
I'm about to walk out the door.
I'm basically more or less done.
We call that the endowed progress effect.
You have an amount of progress that you've already achieved.
All of these actually are just the tiniest of little nudges that move you towards becoming the person you want to be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love these.
I really want to talk about those in a second, a little bit more.
But something that I've obviously skipped over is why do we even end up in these places?
Why do we end up with a habit that is making us unhappy and making us suffer?
Whether that is like.
Why do I end up in the habit of being with people who aren't nice to me, even though I know the outcome?
Why do I end up in the habit of drinking too much, even though I know I feel bad or not committing to things, even though I know that they're going to make me feel better?
Can you kind of explain how we end up at this point where we know we need behavioral change, but now we're struggling to do it?
And then you get by yourself for a second and you say, what is wrong with me?
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And then you ask yourself, what is wrong with me?
And you say, well, I actually don't really know.
I don't have good explanations.
But I know I don't want to be where I am.
So we have some good thoughts about why it might be the case.
A really important one is identity salience.
So we all wear things. so many hats, so many versions of ourselves.
We are different at work than we are at home.
We're different with some friends than we are others.
You can think about these as not totally different people, but they're different versions of Julia, different versions of Gemma that people experience.
And that's normal.
It can be really healthy.
But often, when we find ourselves in a situation or a relationship or an environment or a job by the way that we don't want to be in, it is because there is some part of our identity that is really important to us, even if we haven't properly excavated or understood it.
If I became single, I don't know who I would be, for example.
Or I have only ever had this job, so it is impossible for me to imagine having another one.
So I can't quit.
So I stay trapped in a job that I know makes me unhappy, for example.
And so really doing two things.
One is press yourself.
So what's the part of my identity that is really coming to the forefront here, including I'm part of this friend group.
And if, for example, I didn't go out with this friend group on a certain night, maybe they would never be my friends again.
And then I would never have any more friends for the rest of my life.
So when it's pressed, like what's the part of our identity that we're really protecting?
And how true is that?
Is it possible that I could not be happy as a single person?
Is it possible that there's any other job in the universe that might be meaningful or satisfying to me?
And then the second is actually to look back a little bit.
We call this in psychology the end of history illusion.
Daniel Gilbert and others at Harvard University pioneered this, which is...
It's difficult for us to imagine that we will change a lot in the future for most of us.
We think this is a finished product.
But if you ask us to look back, especially earlier in our lives, say, well, I'm 26 now.
If I look back to the time when I was 16 and ask myself, am I?
You say, oh my gosh, I'm basically a different person in so many ways.
And so I can also, it's actually likely that I'll be very different in the future.
And so being able to do a little bit of that prospection and imagine that future Julia could be a totally different person, happy in a totally different set of circumstances, and And that by making some different choices now, we could actually be doing something very kind for that future version of ourselves, even if it's hard to do it for the present version of ourselves.
Yeah, I love thinking that way, actually.
I think about that a lot, where I'm just like wow, isn't it amazing that the time's going to pass anyways?
And in one year, like a year in your 20s is like five years everywhere else I do it.
I fully believe that.
So much can change.
I love what you said though, by the way, which is the time is going to pass anyway.
That's true.
The time is going to pass anyway.
Someone is going to get this opportunity that you may or may not raise your hand for.
And there's a set of relationships friendship romantic, professional that are available to you if you put yourself out there.
The time is going to pass anyway.
And so you might as well take a chance, take a risk.
And the returns on that risk-taking in your 20s are tremendous, so much higher than through the rest of your life.
Yeah.
Or like tomorrow yeah, you may only have been eating healthy for 24 hours, or you may only have not, you know, vaped or smoked for 24 hours, but then in three days it's going to be 72 hours.
And then suddenly it's going to be six months and it's like, well, the time's passing anyways.
And, like every, all you have to do was be present in that moment and not or do the thing that you said you were going to do, and you have this whole new life.
So they're very interesting.
This is a question I like have highlighted on my question list that I really want to ask you.
I am sure a lot of us have heard about the magic number that it takes 90 days to break a bad habit.
This is a very viral idea.
Is that true?
No.
I don't know exactly how long it takes to break a habit.
I feel very confident that the answer is not 90 days most of the time.
And We can all think about and it's a really easy way to disprove this, which is we can all think of examples of a friend or a relative, perhaps ourselves who one day says I have decided to quit smoking, for example, or quit drinking or take up exercising.
And they somehow do.
Then for the rest of their life, that person doesn't do that thing anymore.
And we can equally think about people at the opposite end of the spectrum who, with a lot of advice, with a lot of encouragement, are not able to change or evolve, maybe even with a lot of attempts to break a bad habit.
There's good evidence that suggests that to really internalize a new habit in your mind can take anywhere from between four and about 255 days, which is obviously a really wide spectrum in terms of creating and establishing new neural pathways in your brain so that whatever the behavior is becomes automatic.
There are, for sure, things we can do to make it easier, because I could imagine people saying I'd like it to take four days rather than 256 days.
And I'm with you.
I know you're like, I'd like the four days.
Do we get to pick how many days?
And if so, four.
I'd like it to take four days.
Things you can do to bring yourself closer to four days rather than 256 days.
Number one, you can write it down.
Number two, you can tell somebody else about it.
So that's clearly articulate your goal.
You can make it visible and social to people.
And you can shift your environment, shift the context in which you operate to make it less likely that the habit is available or attractive to you as well.
So this is the other thing I feel like is the problem with the 90 day thing.
And I wonder if you have the same thought, which is it takes 90 days to break a bad habit.
But once you're past that, if you keep the habit for the rest of your life, who's to say it didn't take one day?
Then what happens?
Do you know what I mean?
Exactly.
So it's like 90 days to set a new habit.
So it's like, well, if I go back to smoking or whatever on day 100, you know what I mean?
It doesn't make sense because if you've set the new habit, surely it lasts –
Forever.
Do you know what I'm saying?
I know exactly what you're saying.
And it's such a good point because, if we think about it for even a second and this is why it's so important, I think for you to do exactly what you do and help people really unpack the science behind this psychology.
You pause and think about it for a second and say, is that likely?
Is it likely that for everyone, 90 days... is the magic number?
Of course it's not likely.
Is it even a helpful guide?
Not really.
And instead what we should be perhaps encouraging people to think about is the idea that, instead of saying I have changed, What I'm basically always doing is changing.
Like I'm always evolving and hopefully moving towards something more positive.
It's very hard to run away from something negative for the rest of your life.
But if we can continue to say...
All I'm trying to do is make a set of better and better, kinder and kinder to myself and to others choices.
Then every single day I get the chance to make the choice again.
And hopefully that feels really positive rather than exhausting to people of oh, we're going to get up and decide not to smoke again.
We're going to get up and go out and decide how I'm going to show up in this night, but instead say let's take it one step at a time.
We're always in the process of becoming who we are.
I actually think that is such a smart way of thinking about it, which is stop thinking about changing habits as deprivation, but instead as addition.
And I think they've done amazing, amazing studies where it is so much easier to to.
Well, it's so much harder to say don't eat the marshmallow or don't do the thing, than say but opt into doing something.
Opt into like do this activity instead of eating the marshmallow, or like think about the habit, or think about behavioral change as something that is like a gift or an addition to your life, rather than just like oh, I have to spend the rest of my life not drinking.
I have to spend the rest of my life not eating carbs.
That's a terrible – habit example, but like I have to spend the rest of my life depriving myself of something in order to be happy.
It's like or you get to spend the rest of your life, you know.
Oh, today's the day I get to wake up and like my lungs feel even better.
Today's the day that I get to wake up and try a new mocktail.
Today's the day I get to wake up and like really nourish my body in like a way that feels so fruitful and I feel like that's such a good behavioral shift and that's what I'm hearing you kind of say, right?
I like the idea of having an inner debate with yourself.
But the really positive form of the question is, what's in it for me?
What's in it for me?
Why would I even do this?
And the more you can start to say to yourself, oh, I know what's in it for me.
And it is all those examples that you just gave, and probably many more for people to you get to remind yourself that there are benefits that are coming.
Even better is if you can remind yourself of benefits that are here already.
I've saved money.
I got to have a conversation with someone that I'm trying to repair a relationship with, for example.
I tried a workout dance class and fell down.
But I also fell down in front of a lot of people and I did not die of embarrassment.
Like I have learned something new and positive about myself.
So there are not only benefits that are coming in the future, which is good but still hard for us to imagine, but I'm getting benefits right now.
I love that.
What's in it for me?
What's in it for me?
Like if you want to change your behavior, you'd be like, what's in it for me?
What am I going to gain tomorrow?
And again, like we were talking about that small win, like setting yourself up to win big or at least small, but win something like really really early on.
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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.
It's the enhanced games.
Some call it grotesque.
Others say it's unleashing human potential.
Either way.
The podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.
I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.
We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.
He felt destined for greatness.
So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back.
Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets.
Meeting the president of Turkey.
I'm Michelle McPhee and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across.
When Jacob met LeVon, this went to a billion dollar fraud.
But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive?
The largest tax investigation in American history.
You need to tell me what you know.
Is somebody coming after me?
Jacob told LeVon, you're ruining my life.
Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I am the therapy gecko.
I am an unlicensed lizard therapist who takes phone calls from real, anonymous humans about their problems such as this.
Or this.
I had my boyfriend over and I had dirty dishes everywhere.
And I put the dirty dishes in our closet so he wouldn't see them.
If you're the kind of person that would enjoy being a fly on the wall of a stranger's therapy session.
Or if you pass people on the street and constantly wonder what might be going on in their heads.
This is the podcast for you.
This week on Therapy Gecko, we're hearing all real authentic, human stories about anything from relationships to family drama to serendipitous encounters with unexpected people and things, or wherever you get your podcasts.
June is Black Music Month and on the Drink Champs podcast we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Swae Lee.
Do you realize how legendary you are?
I appreciate that.
I be seeing it, but I'm like, man, I still got like so much more to do.
Like Prince, he dropped like 30 albums.
We dropped like five right now.
That's the rate we got to be going.
Yep, that's a good attitude.
You'll also hear stories from industry legends and hip-hop pioneers like Fab Five Freddy.
I directed one of Nas' early videos.
Which one?
One Love.
Wow.
I literally filmed in his apartment in Queensbridge.
His moms were still up in that apartment.
Nas was just beginning to take off.
His pops used to live near me in Harlem.
His dad introduced him to a whole lot of, you know, conscious stuff, and he made a young prodigy.
No matter the era, Drink Champs brings you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations.
Listen to Drink Champs from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I want to just quickly go back to one thing that we Again.
I keep wanting to pick your brain about all these things.
Why does motivation and discipline, but mainly, I would say actually, why does motivation fail us so often?
And why is it that people who have all the motivation in the world are often the ones who don't always that aren't always successful.
Because motivation without both a really good plan, the right support and the right environment is just too much effort.
You are basically constantly pushing against a brick wall.
And so it is a way of trapping you. in your own good intentions.
And that's so unfortunate, because people really deserve a chance to take all of the wisdom from psychology, from behavioral science, from neuroscience, and use it to their own advantage.
And if we just say to people oh, I think you need a little bit more motivation, It's like saying to people don't get defensive.
It's going to produce the exact opposite of the behavior that you hope it will.
And so when you feel that sense of motivation for yourself because it's not – motivation is not bad.
It's just not enough.
What can you do with it?
Instead of saying, okay, well, today it's the 1st of January.
I feel very motivated.
I'm going to go out and run 15 miles, and then I will eat a salad, and then I will get – eight hours of very good quality sleep.
A really good thing that you could do instead is I'm going to take that motivation and use it to create a plan.
I'm going to use it to find a buddy to support me in what I am doing.
I'm going to use that motivation to actually imagine what it's going to feel like in a week when I'm back at work and extremely busy, and make a plan for that version of Julia, rather than today's version of Julia.
So can motivation be a fuel for people to change?
Of course, yes.
Does it last a very long time?
No, it doesn't.
And when it meets other obstacles, it is very often not enough in the face of those obstacles.
And it is really, really unhelpful when we judge ourselves or judge other people for not having enough motivation, not having enough willpower.
It wasn't ever likely that they were going to be successful on motivation and willpower alone.
I think about this all the time, whenever and this is a total like curveball to throw you, but we'll do the detour, come back.
I think about this all the time when I see people like criticize people who are overweight on the internet.
And they're like, just have some willpower, just have some discipline.
And I'm like that is honestly so ridiculous to think that that is enough and that that was ever enough for you to change, or ever enough for anybody.
The way that our environment, our childhood environments, are set up, the way that our physical environments are set up, the way that modern society is set up, means that it is more likely than not that you will not change your behavior because of how exhausting it is to go against all your history, all like the stresses of modern life, all the coping skills that you have to change.
So I love that you're saying like that's motivation and willpower, like is not enough for anybody.
And if for somebody to say that it was meant that there were probably other things going on, the tactile things, the relational things, the environmental things that are like also shifting at the same time.
It's also such a good example and if we can extend the detour even a little further, what you ask about is such a good example of what we call in behavioral economics, but also now in psychology, the fundamental attribution error.
And basically I experience myself as a very complicated unique special, fully realized human being.
I'm a complete person to myself.
And even people that we know very well, very intimately remain sort of strangers to us in all kinds of ways.
We can not only never properly understand them, but they're never quite as complete as we are as a person.
And so a consequence of that is we are extremely quick to both blame it was probably their fault and to judge there is something wrong with them other people in ways that we might not for ourselves.
It's a really good example is if someone is late to a meeting or to an event especially if we're inclined to judge them, we might say oh, of course they're very disorganized.
This always happens.
They're not respectful.
And we've jumped really fast to, they're not a good person.
They don't value our relationships.
Whereas, of course, in 100 of the situations where I have been late, There's obviously a very good explanation.
Usually outside of myself.
The train was delayed.
Someone else really needed me.
Perhaps I was coming from a very important meeting.
And so that fundamental attribution error, the tendency to externalize our own mistakes and to blame other people for their limitations, is really dangerous, because it not only prevents us taking a hard look at ourselves, but also prevents us being more forgiving, more welcoming, maybe even more helpful to that person.
I do this all the time.
I'm hearing you say that.
I was like oh, I did this.
This morning.
There was like somebody walking in front of me and I was like that person is so rude.
I was like, can't they see that this is a busy sidewalk?
And then I literally did it like five minutes later And I was like well, that's different because you know.
And then I was like no, it's not different.
Like I had to pause in the middle of the street to text someone.
I was lost.
I was like, I don't know where I was going.
I was like, well, this person probably didn't either.
I know it's so interesting to like.
Basically, what we're just talking about is like empathy and like not judging other people's progress or yeah, what they may or may not have like in their toolkit.
I always think the first law of behavioral science is People are people and so are you.
And so you can be forgiving of other people while having very high expectations for yourself.
And so indeed, people are people and so are you.
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, let's talk about how we're going to change our behavior.
You've been giving us so many little snippets. like little treats along the way.
But I'm like, let's get a little bit of a guide down from an expert.
What are, in your mind, some of the most scientifically successful ways to change behavior on an individual level, in a family level, in a relationship level, maybe even an organizational level?
How do we make people, including ourselves, change?
First, get specific.
And second, get honest.
So let's be really practical about it.
And let's just talk about individuals for a second.
And then we can talk about much more enjoyable than trying to change yourself, trying to change other people.
The best.
Let's do that instead.
But let's for the moment assume that we have to make a sincere effort to change ourselves.
Okay, get specific.
What is the behavior that you are trying to change?
And so for example, Quit drinking is not a behavior.
That's just a loose behavior or it's a kind of category of activities that you don't want to be doing anymore.
Deciding not to have a second drink, for example, on any given night.
We're starting to get specific on what you are seeking to do.
It's very clearly measurable.
So get specific.
We've already talked a few times about the idea that writing a goal down, even if you never show it to people, is very helpful.
It seems to trip some kind of cognitive switch for us.
Asking people for help is another thing that you can do that is really powerful and useful.
And so that might be.
I have someone that I could text when I am thinking about to extend this example having a second drink that night.
The other thing that you can do and this works really well in organizations and teams as well is let's start to imagine what that future would be like if I decide or I make this choice that I'm trying to move away from.
If it happens, if I want to have a second drink, if I think about calling that person who I actually have a pretty destructive relationship with, Then what should I do?
If I have this feeling, because feelings often precede our thoughts, then what am I likely to think?
I should call that person.
And what should I do instead?
Really important is that we have some kind of replacement for the behavior.
So a good example in a pub would be, well, what would I order instead?
That might be a really good moment to know what my alternative order is.
If you've never contemplated what you would order other than a second drink, It might be good to have a plan going in before you do so.
And then the next thing to do is to say well, once I've accomplished a really small version of that goal we've talked about, it could be 24 hours of successfully achieving the goal.
It could be 36.
It could be a month.
Then what happens?
What reward might I give myself?
One of the funny things that happens is that the reward is often very motivating to us.
We're seduced by the idea of the reward.
But once you get there, you find it wasn't that important to you.
Like you didn't want or need the thing that you were going to reward yourself with.
Because the goal itself has become its own reward.
So get specific up front.
Get support, including from your own brain, about what you're going to do instead, and then have your if-then escape plan.
Yeah, the if-then intentions are so good.
I feel like James Clear wrote about them a lot in Atomic Habit.
Atomic habits.
And it sounds really basic.
But one of the things that I love about it is it's not just oh, there's a different plan, but that idea that we're kind of constantly on branching pathways and you say to yourself, oh-.
Like there were always a different set of choices.
Like there were always, this was always a choose your own adventure.
I could always have made different choices.
And this is just one of those moments where I can do that.
I feel like this is what we keep coming back to.
It's like you're in charge of your reality. prove it to yourself that you can be in charge.
Exactly.
And that no one cares more than you.
No one will care more than you.
But I hope the other really liberating thought, and sometimes this comes with time and sometimes you just have the opportunity to learn it is No one cares.
And there's a really good version of that, which is you can do whatever you want, because most people are just not paying that much attention.
Oh, it's the best.
Yeah.
People are thinking an awful lot about themselves and how they're showing up in that situation.
And aren't finding whatever you are doing particularly memorable and, in the best possible way, perhaps not even that interesting to them.
I feel like that is a completely different conversation.
But once you realize that it's like, oh wow, there's so much more about the world is possible to me when I don't have this entire part of my brain thinking about how somebody else is perceiving me when they're not.
It's a huge freedom, I think.
So Daniel Kahneman said, nothing is important as you think it is while you are thinking about it.
And I think the personal psychology version of that is...
I'm just not as interesting as I think I am.
Yeah.
And that's a little confronting but hopefully also wildly freeing for people.
I'm just not that interesting to other people.
Yeah, you can put the spotlight on somebody else for a while.
Following this vein of how to change behaviour, the vein being the entire episode, but following this specific vein, What happens when you fail?
You know, we've talked a lot about how you will try multiple times, likely, you likely will.
I think I read the statistic that people try on average like 25 30 times before a behavior sticks, if it ever does.
What's the protocol then, for when you've noticed that you've slipped, you've fallen, it hasn't gone the way that you wanted it to.
Gemma, can I just say, I think that was the most important sentence in the whole episode.
What happens when you fail?
And so many people that I talk to and I do a lot of work with CEOs or very senior executives, people much more established in their life and careers refuse to use the phrase when we fail or when I fail.
And we'll only talk about if we fail and are then very quick to say, but of course we won't.
We will be in the minority who succeeds but don't do enough to really push themselves.
Push the team to say Maybe it will be quite healthy to plan for failure.
What happens when we fail?
And, assuming that we will both, lets you in advance say well, I'm going to forgive myself first, when that happens.
But then I'm going to do two things.
The first is I'm going to declare a fresh start.
And you might know the fresh start effect, which is that certain periods of time your birthday, New Year, a Monday can be very motivating for us in terms of declaring that now is the beginning of a new habit.
We just seem to be a little bit more successful when we have had a fresh start.
The thing that I love about this science and psychology is Anything can be a fresh start tomorrow, the next hour, the next half hour, the more that you can say to yourself I have the opportunity to begin again at any possible moment.
And so if, for example, you have not started the day as healthily as you want and you're like well, Today is shot.
I might as well eat a whole cake.
You could also say 2 p.m. is a fresh start.
Nobody cares.
There are no rules.
Pick a time.
Begin with a fresh start.
The second is, instead of talking about what we have to do or what the rules or requirements are, or what we think other people expect others to, It could be really constructive to instead frame our goals in terms of expectations that we have of ourselves.
What expectation do I have of myself?
So I might have an expectation that I am a person who is able and excited to get up early and exercise.
I might have an expectation that I am a person who gives help to other people when I can see that they need it, that I am kind or generous or patient.
And you see, all of that is part of saying here's a set of qualities that I hope I have, that I would like to see more of in myself.
And I'm going to look for opportunities to practice them.
I'm going to look for opportunities to demonstrate that that's consistent with how I would like to see myself.
So, when we fail which all of us will declaring a fresh start and then reminding ourselves what expectations we have of ourselves makes us much more likely to be successful the next time.
And I think people think that it's jinxing it or it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it's like well, wouldn't you rather the prophecy then actually was able to get back on track?
Like then it just be completely derailed by not having an if-then plan.
It's almost refusing to think about it is itself kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And it's exactly, you can have a prophecy or you can have a plan, but you can't have both of those.
And what we know for sure is that the plan path succeeds much more often than the prophecy path.
I love that.
That's an amazing quote.
That is so good.
Put it on a t-shirt.
I know.
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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.
It's the enhanced games.
Some call it grotesque.
Others say it's unleashing human potential.
Either way.
The podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds.
I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.
We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.
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So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back.
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When Jacob met LeVon, this went to a billion dollar fraud.
But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive?
The largest tax investigation in American history.
You need to tell me what you know.
Is somebody coming after me?
Jacob told LeVon, you're ruining my life.
Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I am the therapy gecko.
I am an unlicensed lizard therapist who takes phone calls from real, anonymous humans about their problems such as this.
Or this.
I had my boyfriend over and I had dirty dishes everywhere.
And I put the dirty dishes in our closet so he wouldn't see them.
If you're the kind of person that would enjoy being a fly on the wall of a stranger's therapy session.
Or if you pass people on the street and constantly wonder what might be going on in their heads.
This is the podcast for you.
This week on Therapy Gecko, we're hearing all real authentic, human stories about anything from relationships to family drama to serendipitous encounters with unexpected people and things.
If real people pique your interest, listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
June is Black Music Month and on the Drink Champs podcast we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Swae Lee.
Do you realize how legendary you are?
I appreciate that.
I be seeing it, but I'm like, man, I still got like so much more to do.
Like Prince, he dropped like 30 albums.
We dropped like five right now.
That's the rate we got to be going.
Yep, that's a good attitude.
You'll also hear stories from industry legends and hip-hop pioneers like Fab Five Freddy.
I directed one of Nas' early videos.
Which one?
One Love.
Wow.
I literally filmed in his apartment in Queensbridge.
His moms were still up in that apartment.
Nas was just beginning to take off.
His pops used to live near me in Harlem.
His dad introduced him to a whole lot of, you know, conscious stuff, and he made a young prodigy.
No matter the era, Drink Champs brings you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations.
Listen to Drink Champs from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Get into this before we end up wrapping up.
How do we handle people who refuse to change?
So I know we've spoken a lot about this relational factor.
Maybe you have parents who refuse to change.
You have a partner who refuses to change.
You have friends who are enabling a problem just as much as you are probably enabling them as well.
What do we do?
Do we call out their behavior?
When do we just decide that maybe we need to just not be in that situation?
It's a fine line.
Do you have any advice for people who are dealing with that?
It is so seductive to think a lot about how other people need to change.
Trust me.
I spent my whole life working on change, and the best is the kind where you get to stay exactly the same and other people have to change.
Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of that out there.
And so, instead of really I'm going to say occupying our mental and emotional headspace with the ways that other people need to change, the safest assumption is that you can't change other people.
It's not that other people don't change.
Of course they do.
Can you make someone else change?
No, generally you can't.
And so what you can do, what you are always in control of, is your response to that person, and understanding why that person is so triggering for you is a really good step to take.
Because you can continue to change your relationship, both like the quantity of time that you spend with them, for example, how you spend that time, what you do or how you react to what they say to you, whether that is advice from a parent.
That doesn't make it an obligation to do what they say suggested that you do, or why someone else's appetite for conflict doesn't have to turn into an argument if you choose to remove yourself from the situation.
Sometimes we feel like we've told someone to change, suggested that they change and they still haven't changed.
And it's really easy to interpret that as a statement of disrespect from that person towards you.
And I think there's actually a really useful tactic and practice that comes from family therapy actually, or couples therapy around that, articulating a need that you might have or a desire that you might have for people to change.
It's basically this.
It's called a clear and specific request because that is exactly what it is.
And so often someone will talk to me about a person in their life.
It could be a person on their team.
It could be their boss.
It could be a romantic partner or a friend.
And they'll say, oh, this person, here are all the things that I think are wrong with them.
And I just really think they should completely change.
And I will usually say, have you made a clear and specific request?
When you are 15 minutes late for our dinners.
I interpret that as a sign of disrespect for me and for my time.
Do you think it would be possible for you to plan to be five minutes early in the future?
Clear and specific request.
And it's not a trap.
They're free to refuse.
They're free to say that isn't practical for me.
It's not an abuse of your power and abuse of the relationship, but you've made a clear and specific request.
And maybe they can respond to that request.
Maybe they can't.
But you at least will know that you have done your part.
What I know for sure is not successful in changing anyone else's behavior is complaining about it to a third person.
That is the opposite of a successful strategy.
It's enjoyable.
It's very emotionally satisfying.
It unfortunately works 0% of the time.
Yeah.
And it so often feels like emotional processing, right?
Sometimes I think we think that our reaction to their behavior is the problem, which it probably is, and we need to work through it, but we work through it not with them, and we're like trying to find clarity in somebody who isn't that person.
It's very like a roundabout way of like the other person becomes a proxy for what you really should be saying.
To like the individual.
I feel like the most useful question in all of the intergroup relations, interpersonal psychology is have you tried talking to them about it?
I know.
So often you don't even need the second question.
I know.
I know, but it's so difficult, isn't it?
So often I will say to people have you tried talking to them about it, especially in a professional setting?
And often people will say...
Well, I was sort of hoping you would talk to them about it.
That's why we're having this conversation.
And I think you and Gemma are so right to say...
It can be very helpful for you to process, to understand your reaction, to actually figure out.
Is it, as a younger person in my life said to me recently, is it an ish you or is it an ish them?
More t-shirts are going to be printed.
More t-shirts coming your way.
Is it an ish you or is it an ish them?
And that conversation can be useful.
It's just not going to change the other person's behavior.
But if we also have pretty low expectations for other people and their ability to change their behavior, that can actually be pretty empowering for us because it's a reminder oh, What I can change, what I can control, is my own behavior.
Yeah.
And often I think that actually is again another very, very freeing thing, you know, just being like okay, cool.
So this isn't, this situation isn't making me happy.
It's not, you're not responsible for others' emotions and they're not responsible for mine.
You know what I mean?
I feel like that's a very empowering thing about behavioral change.
It's just realizing that nobody's going to come and save me.
Nobody's going to come and fix me.
This is completely my obligation.
And that's terrifying and also incredibly freeing that I don't need to really answer to anybody.
If I'm like Well, I do, but as in like that I don't like, I can just take control.
Like it's up to me.
I can make the decision that I want to be different and just go and do it.
One of the most useful things, maybe the only useful thing we can really do is be self-accountable.
One of the most confronting chunks of psychology that I read about is basically the body of.
Almost no matter how well we know a person or how long we have known a person, it is very difficult to accurately predict someone's feelings or thoughts in response to a situation.
So every time you're telling yourself a story that you have to do something because another person will be so upset, or because they are expecting you to do that, or because they will think badly of you if you do or don't do something, actually just reminding yourself that You might not be as good a reader of people.
You might not be in particular a very good reader of this person.
It can actually free you up to see a whole different set of choices.
Oh, I'm literally, I'm just thinking about, I'm thinking about myself there and being like yeah, that's totally right.
The amount of times I've been like oh, my friend's totally going to react this way, or my partner is going to react this way.
I don't really think I've ever been able to predict it.
A fun thing that I really love about it is there's some emerging research that says, in certain situations, The better you know someone, the worse you are likely to be at predicting their thoughts or feelings in a specific situation which could be really confronting.
You say, oh, the world suddenly feels very unstable.
But I kind of love it as a way of saying that people can still surprise you that all kinds of things could happen in a relationship that feels extremely stable or extremely concrete, that actually we could continue to have new things happen in this relationship.
And that every time I encourage people to do this, go out and look for the unexpected reaction in your close friends, romantic partners, colleagues that you work with.
I think it's actually a very fun thing when you say to yourself, Did not expect Gemma to say that.
Yeah, there we go.
Okay, let's talk about your book.
Can we talk about it?
Please, I would be delighted.
From my bookshelf over yonder.
I was going to say, I was going to explain it, but that's not my book.
So you have to explain it for me and tell us about it.
Let me start by talking about why we wrote it, which was pretty much the same motivation for all of the work you do, which is A lot of our efforts to change.
In large organizations, even small teams or if you're a solo entrepreneur, are not very successful.
We're actually disappointing much more often. then we succeed.
But there's a science to success as well, which is what we put together in the book that groups of people can do big things together really well.
And from the world of airlines, fashion food and beverages, from restaurant kitchens and factories.
We tell all of these stories about people who have successfully experimented with the science of change and brought it into their own lives and into the work that they do.
And what we're trying to do is create a bit of a challenge to our kind of very standard model in a lot of workplaces where a change is coming and we basically say to people shut up and change and instead invite people to be part of the conditions where they can change successfully.
And it's called How Change Really Works.
How Change Really Works.
If you're listening rather than watching.
What is the I don't want to say a fun fact?
What is the most interesting thing in that book that you think is the most interesting?
Maybe it's a story, maybe it's a fact.
I don't know.
It's up to you in the book that people can look forward to more of.
The original experiment behind this book was with 7000 people around the world asking them about their feelings or reactions to change at work.
We were trying to figure out the answer to the question.
Is it true that people just don't like to change?
Are people allergic to change?
And the answer is no.
When we ask people, how do you feel about a change that is coming?
About half the time, people feel quite positive about it.
And when we ask them what feelings they have, they say, I feel curious, but also anxious.
And so we have an openness to change and also a great deal of uncertainty about it.
But I think as soon as you know that about yourself, about other people, you can start to say How do I then shift the conversation really quickly from change as an obligation, something you have to do, to that invitation to be better?
That is so cool.
When is it available?
Comes out May 19th.
How change really works.
There we go.
We have one final question for you.
We, me.
I always do.
Do you do that?
When you're like, we.
I think that's nice though, isn't it?
I don't know.
I just, I've been trying to stop doing that.
That's my bad habit.
Oh, who was like in your mind, who are the other like we's?
Well, I think it's an Australian thing that I do where, I don't know if you're the same way.
I think Australians are very much like, oh, you can't take credit for things.
So you always say we.
It's like, no, it's just I. Do you know what I mean?
I do, yeah.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
It's true, because I think in the United States it would be much more natural for someone to be like I have this question.
I think especially for Australians it's if someone has helped you.
So, for example, you're like, oh, I actually didn't write the final version of this question.
I can't say I have a question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is why I say to people, you need to have American friends.
Like all of my Australian British friends, I was like, we need to get you.
Everybody should be prescribed an American friend, because they really I think I just have like an ability to really talk about themselves more accurately, even if it like might come off as arrogant, like more accurately than people who are humble all the time.
I think that sense of the personal narrative, manifest destiny, where I'm meant to be.
But one of the things I really appreciate is the hype squad.
Yes.
I'm excited to cheer for other people as well.
Yeah, I know tangents.
We're keeping that in.
I love, i love a chit chat.
I never get anything done because i'm always doing things like this and i'm talking to people anyways.
Um, my final question.
I want to know what is one piece of advice that you have for people in their 20s that has nothing to do with what we talked about today.
We are always in the middle of the story.
No matter what has happened to you.
You're at the first day of a job or the last day of a relationship, or the really messy, annoying middle of trying to create a new habit in your life.
We are always in the middle of the story.
And if you can be curious about how the story unfolds, interested in your own life and the way in which you're a character in other people's life, I think that also frees you up to be the hero of that story and to remind yourself that Anything is possible in the rest of the story, no matter what happened in the beginning.
And what was the biggest lesson from your 20s?
In any given situation, I think there are things to be afraid of.
And there are things to be curious or excited about.
And that's a choice.
You can choose to be afraid.
You can choose to be excited and it feels easier to choose to be afraid.
That feels natural or instinctive, maybe.
But choosing to be excited opens up an almost unlimited set of possibilities.
Oh, I love that.
That's actually such a beautiful way to finish the episode.
Oh, perfect.
I love that.
Yeah, like it ties everything up in a nice, neat bow.
Choose to be excited about your change.
Choose to be excited about your 20s, about your life.
I feel like that's a beautiful theme.
Oh thanks for saying that.
Well thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
I'm going to leave a link in the description for your book, which will actually already be out when this episode goes live.
Are you doing a launch party?
Are you doing anything fun?
Oh, okay.
What's the most fun thing that you've seen someone do?
What do you do?
For when like a book comes out or something like that?
Well, I'm a big celebrating person.
Good.
So like I'm always, if there's an excuse to get people together, I will always do it.
My friends like hired a boat for their book coming out, which was really, really fun.
It was actually just so – I think they just wanted to hire a boat in general.
That's a lot of commitment.
Like it's not like I will stop by your book party.
It's like you're either here when the boat goes and you are here until the end.
And also like some people – You've got to read the book aloud to you.
I know.
It was really like we – you're kind of in your hands.
Yeah.
Like we've got to just kind of do it.
But I feel like when this is so random.
But a bunch of my friends are now writing books and I always say to people because not random, they're amazing people.
But I always say like, make sure that the day it comes out you do something really special, because it's like a really big moment.
But then often it kind of feels kind of flat.
So hopefully you've got something fun planned.
Oh, I like that.
That's it.
Have a good mental snapshot moment.
We have plenty of things to do.
Like we have plenty of media things to do on the 19th of May.
One thing we're going to do, which I'm excited for, is –
Have you spent time in New York?
Yeah, love.
So Barnes & Noble on Fifth Avenue.
We are going to do the window display over the holidays, but we are going to go there that day and sign a bunch of copies.
Ah. which I think is emotionally very meaningful for the authors.
It's maybe less meaningful for everyone else, but I feel I'm excited for that.
Okay, you've got it all sorted.
I feel like that's going to be a fun mental snapshot, because when my book came out I just kind of hung up.
I'm like, so bad.
No, I know.
It's so bad.
Okay.
And I was like, this huge thing just happened for me.
And I was like, so maybe I'll go to the grocery store.
I'll walk my dog.
But you'd been working on it for a long time as well.
So, I mean, that feeling of like, well, it's like, it's done.
I know over it.
Yeah, it's very.
It's like when you get a degree, it's like when you graduate, like so many things have like the work work work work work, and then it's like it's just done and it's like out, you've got the piece of paper, you've got the books, out in the world, like this thing is, you know, it's time to move on to the next thing.
Yes yeah, I agree with that.
No you I, you have to celebrate it.
Yeah, you definitely.
Um, one of my favorite chapters in the book is called ending change.
Oh, because we think a lot about the beginning and we never think about the end of like okay, like this is this is done.
Yeah, how do we end change?
Really well, There we go.
Have a party.
Duh.
On a boat.
That's the answer.
That's the solution.
Yeah, you can take that chapter out.
I just gave it away for free.
Well, I will make sure that if you're listening, you know exactly what about Julia's book and where to see her TED Talks and where to see what she is up to.
Thank you if you have made it this far.
If you are listening on Spotify, leave a comment down below.
What is the behavior that you were trying to change?
Whatever it is, we are going to be an open book of promises to each other and promises to ourselves.
You can of course follow us on Instagram.
You can watch episodes on Netflix.
You can do all of those things.
There are like a million links in the episode description at this stage.
So go there, explore.
We have a sub stack.
There's lots to be done with the podcast if you want to go even further on this episode or all of our other episodes.
But of course, as I say, as we wrap up every single topic, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself.
We will talk very, very soon.
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I am an unlicensed lizard therapist who takes phone calls from real, anonymous humans about their problems such as this.
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It's the enhanced games.
Some call it grotesque.
Others say it's unleashing human potential.
Either way.
The podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds.
I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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A Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman.
Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets.
A billion dollar fraud.
But how long can this alliance last?
Tell me what you know.
Is somebody coming after me?
Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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On the Radio 831 podcast.
Join us, Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall, as we unpack all the trending tropes buzzy adaptations, book talk, drama and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests.
Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire fantasy, identity and how we love now.
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